Thank you. Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 29, 2020, at 11:54 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Rick, > > > > I can’t point you to specific legislation, but all I can say is that all > the documentation I have ever seen points to a rented farm being heritable > the same as any other asset. The farmer was free to dispose of it as he > chose. What he was disposing of was the unexpired portion of the lease, > plus all the physical assets on the farm (seed, animals machinery etc). > > > > Here’s a random example of a will taken from the PRONI wills site, for a > Tyrone farmer: > > > > “I Robert Alexander of Altrest being of sound mind memory and understanding > to make publish and declare this my last will and testament in manner and > form following. That is to say I direct my executors at my death to sell my > farm of land in Altrest and all the stock, crop and chattels thereon……” > > > > 1st March 1880. > > > > If you check the Valuation revision records for 1880, you will find that > Robert Alexander had plot 12a in Altrest which was a 56 acre farm rented > from Dalkeith Holmes. He also had 2 labourers cottages on the land which he > sublet. Quite clearly from the wil and the Valuation records, he didn't > own the land, so what he was selling was the unexpired portion of that > lease. If you think about it many modern flats and appartments are > similar. They are often on 100 or 1000 year leases, and can be sold on in > the same way as freehold property. > > > > (I think in this particular case Robert had no children to leave the farm > to. Others mentioned in the will were his sister and some brothers, so > that’s probably why it was being sold rather than left to the next > generation. There was no next generation, but in other cases you will see > the famr left to the eldest son. The landowner had no say in the matter). > > > > As far as I can see, the person who bought the farm merely had to inform > the landlord that they were now the tenant. I see no evidence that the new > owner needed the landlord’s permission. > > > > As the 1800s progressed there were several bits of land legislation that > gradually improved the security of tenure offered to most farmers who had a > lease. It became increasingly difficult to evict them, or raise their > rents, unless they failed to pay the rent or abide by certain other terms. > It wasn’t as good a freehold but by the 1890s it was close to it. So the > lease could be sold on in a fairly straightforward manner. That’s my > interpretation and it certainly seems to have been what happened. > > > > > > Elwyn > > > > > >> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 14:23, Rick Smoll <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hello Elwyn >> >> Both you and Peter are addressing lease issues pertaining to the >> circumstances around the death of the landowner (which is interesting info >> for certain); I am wondering though if you have come across any information >> as to how the lease was legally passed on from generation to generation >> within a family under normal circumstances (in the case of my family for at >> least five generations). I've had no luck searching. >> >> Thanks again >> >> Rick Smoll >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: elwyn soutter <[email protected]> >> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <[email protected]> >> Cc: Rick Smoll <[email protected]>; Peter McKittrick < >> [email protected]> >> Sent: Mon, Jun 29, 2020 4:24 am >> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Passing on of Tenancies >> >> Regarding “reps of” cases, it was common for there to be significant >> delays in winding up of some estates. That could be a combination of slow >> or ineffective executors or it could be because there were disputes or >> other legal matters which delayed things. >> >> As a random search, I went to the PRONI wills website and looked for >> people who died between 1858 and 1862 but whose estates were not granted >> probate until between 1890 and 1900. There are 36 such cases. So it took >> up to 32 years for probate to be granted in a fairly significant number of >> cases. And until that was done the executors had control over lease renewal >> etc. So any property transactions relating to those estates would have >> “reps of” for many many years. (It wasn’t a dodge to avoid a new lease, as >> Peter suggests. It was just that the owner was dead but the property had >> not yet been passed on formally to the person who had inherited it. So the >> person with temporary jurisdiction, and landlord, was the executor(s). >> >> Here’s a William Bradley who died in 1877. Probate was finally granted in >> 1940. Just a slight delay of 63 years. (The estate was valued at a >> whopping £25). >> >> Bradley William of Drumard county Tyrone farmer died 26 January 1877 >> Administration W/A Londonderry 13 September to Enoch Bradley farmer. >> Effects £25. Probate: 13 September 1940. >> >> On many of the lengthy delay cases you will find the letters “d.b.n” in >> the probate abstract. DBN is short for “De bonis non” a term used by the >> Probate Court when dealing with estates where the original executor(s) did >> not fulfil their obligations to the deceased, perhaps because they were >> overseas or even dead themselves, and no-one else took any action to >> resolve things. >> >> >> >> Elwyn >> >> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:25, Peter McKittrick via CoTyroneList < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi Rick, you asked for an example of "Representatives of [Name] being >> listed in relation to tenancies. The example I’ve seen is when the Altmore >> Estate was auctioned in 1872 and the sale prospectus listed all the >> existing lease agreements including one over an Altmore property i.n.o. >> Robert McKittrick where the Tenants Names are recorded as "Representatives >> of Robert McKittrick". This document is available on subscription through >> Find My Past Landed Estates Court Rentals1850-1885. By 1860 and Griffith, >> Robert’s son John (don’t think he was the eldest) is in Occupation of the >> property and by 1869 Robert had died, but in 1872 the lease agreement with >> Reps of Robert McKittrick was still being relied upon. >> >> Regards >> >> Peter McKittrick >> >>> On 28 Jun 2020, at 8:33 am, Peter McKittrick <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Rick, good topic. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the lessee is >> sometimes described as “Representatives of.....“ May be to avoid having to >> draw up a new lease until it was absolutely necessary say when the lessor >> changed. >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 28 Jun 2020, at 6:20 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList < >> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello all …I've been having difficulty finding information concerning >> how tenancy was passed along from generation to generation on the >> plantation farms. What was the legal framework for inheriting the lease on >> the farm that the family had been occupying … in our case for at least 150 >> years prior to the land acts at the end of the 19th century? Hoping >> somebody might be able to steer me somewhere on this issue. >>>> Also, any insight on how a decision was made within a family regarding >> which son (or daughter) would assume responsibility for the lease? >>>> Thanks, as always … >>>> Rick Smoll >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: elwyn soutter <[email protected]> >>>> To: James McKane <[email protected]> >>>> Cc: Rick Smoll <[email protected]>; CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List < >> [email protected]> >>>> Sent: Thu, Jun 11, 2020 8:21 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 >> - 1633 >>>> >>>> Rick, Ballyboe is from the Irish words “Baile bo”meaning “cow land.” >> According to Philip Robinson - “The Plantation of Ulster”,a ballyboe was “A >> small Irish land division which, before the plantation,represented the >> territory within which several families worked the land.Although the real >> area of the ballyboe varied greatly with the quality of theland, it was >> assumed by the plantation surveyors to contain 60 acres ofprofitable land >> in most areas of north-west Ulster. Many modern townlands haveevolved from >> these ballyboes.” Not all land in Ireland was requisitionedby the Crown at >> the time of the Plantation. At least a third remained in thehands of local >> Irish landlords, normally provided they agreed to be loyal tothe Crown. An >> obvious example would bethe Maguires who had lands in Fermanagh. Chunks of >> land were declared forfeitfollowing the 1641 uprising and reallocated. >> Details in the Down survey: http://downsurvey.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php >> Robinson spends some time discussing theorigins of settler names in Tyrone, >> and to what extent Scottish undertakers hadScots tenants, and English >> undertakers had English tenants. The implicationbeing that they originated >> in their landlords respective estates. However therewas evidently a lot of >> mixing. For example on p122 he says: The evidence of Scots settling >> outsidetheir allocated baronies of Strabane and Mountjoy is supplemented by >> a statementof Lord Audley’s in 1614 when he claimed that his estate of >> Finagh and Rarone inOmagh barony had as many Scots as English in it. >> Although there is considerable degree ofcontinuity between 1630 and 1666 in >> the distributional pattern of Britishsettlement, and indeed in the >> persistence of English and Scottish localities,the actual surnames on most >> estates did change dramatically. This turnover ofpersonnel cannot be >> attributed simply to the ravages of the 1641 rebellion, forcomparable >> changes can be observed between 1622 and 1630. A high degree oftenant >> mobility is a striking characteristic of plantation settlement, despitethe >> continuity of settlement patterns.” He goes on to discuss colonial spread. >> “In1622 the percentage of Scots on any Tyrone estate was closely related >> towhether or not the estate was Scottish owned, and only marginally related >> tothe physical distance from Londonderry as the natural entry point for >> Scottishsettlers. However by 1630 the gap between the statistical >> significance of thesetwo factors had narrowed, and by 1666 it was the >> distance from Londonderrywhich was most significant. This supports the >> model of colonization outlinedabove, whereby the process of direct >> plantation, with subsequent internalmigration operated simultaneously with >> that of colonial spread. Furthermore thecontention that colonial spread >> became relatively more important than directplantation with time is also >> supported.” (This continues for pages but you willhopefully get the general >> drift. Manysettlers in Tyrone and particularly the Scots arrived via >> Londonderry and movedacross Tyrone. Some stayed put and some moved about. >> After 40 years colonialspread meant that a significant percentage were no >> longer in the place wherethey first settled). Loughterush is in the barony >> of Omagh East.For me, the absence of Morrisons in that part of Tyrone in >> the Muster Rolls (iec 1630) strongly suggests your ancestors must have >> there arrived afterthat. There’s only 1 Morison in Tyronein the Muster >> Rolls, a Robert Morsion in Strabane barony. Perhaps your familywere >> connected to him and moved south to Loughterush. So colonial spread? Your >> question is whether Audley brought theMorisons over? I doubt he brought >> them over himself because he appears to haveacquired those lands from his >> uncle, Lord Castlehaven who was the originalUndertaker. The family were >> from Petersfield in Hampshire. Morison is not a name particularly common >> inthat part of England so that would make me doubt they were Castlehaven >> tenantsin England. But I might be wrong. Elwyn >>>> On Fri, 12 Jun 2020 at 01:21, James McKane <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> A search of the CoTyroneIreland.com Tithe Applotment Index shows this >> entry >>>> >>>> | MORRISON | Edward | Loughterush | Sloy Manor, Kilskerry 1826 >>>> | >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim McKane >>>> Kitchener, Ontario >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 5:02 PM Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList < >> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I located a copy of the 1654-1656 Civil Survey that covers the townland >> of Loughterush in Kilskeery Parish … this obviously does not list the >> tenants names, only the owner … but there is interesting information there >> that for me begs some questions that perhaps some of you could help me >> with. I have attached the top page with the header that describes the area >> and names the owner, and then the page that lists Laghterish (older >> spelling or misspelling of Loughterush) among the townlands in his >> possession. >>>> Questions:1. Is there any reason to have confidence that Col. Audley >> Mervin would have been the one to have brought the Morrisons over to >> Loughterush? 2. Were all of the lands of Ulster apportioned out in the time >> frame around 1610, or did it take a longer period of time (ie, could Mervin >> have been granted his land after 1630?) He was also listed among those who >> came to the aid of Londonderry during the siege by James II in 1690, so he >> was not likely an original grantee in 1610.3.The total acreage for the >> townlands of Lisnahanna, Loughterush, and Derryvokenan (?) is listed as 65 >> acres … there is obviously a lot more than 65 acres there (even Irish >> acres) ; the Morrison farm alone was about 40-50 acres … could that be >> referring to only the amount of acreage under cultivation? >>>> Other items of interest: … I now know what a Balliboe is. >>>> … Based on the note in the left column of the first page, Audley was >> apparently among those protestant royalists who were penalized by Cromwell >> with the settlement act of 1652. >>>> >>>> Rick Smoll >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: elwyn soutter <[email protected]> >>>> To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List <[email protected]> >>>> Cc: rsmoll999 <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Thu, May 21, 2020 9:27 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family Name in Ulster 1610 >> - 1633 >>>> >>>> Rick, The surname, the general location and thefamily denomination all >> point to them being settlers who probably arrived inIreland in the 1600s. >> MacLysaght’s surnames of Ireland describesMorrison as “an English name >> numerous inUlster.” The location ie Tyrone, is a county heavily settled by >> Scots &English in that period, and the family denomination (Methodist in >> 1901) alsopoints to them being incomers. (They would almost certainly have >> been Church ofIreland – ie Anglican- in earlier times, prior to Methodism’s >> arrival inIreland). So in effect you have 3pointers to them being of >> settler origins. The Muster Rolls c 1630 show a number ofMorrisons in >> Ireland, and one in Tyrone, but none in the Barony of Omagh East(which >> includes Loughterush) so that points to a post 1630 arrival in >> theLoughterush area, if not in Ireland. It’s very rare to find any >> documentationfor the 1600s, unless you were an Undertaker or major land >> owner, or had landforfeit after the 1641 rebellion. Theearliest likely >> records might be in the Registry of Deeds which start around1709. If the >> family registered a lease or other significant document, thatsometimes >> gives you a date. Failing that, church records may help. KilskeeryChurch of >> Ireland records start in 1767 so you might find them there. For somepeople >> the tithe applotment records in the late 1820s/early 1830s are often >> theearliest records to be found. I searched the PRONI e-catalogue but see >> nomention there of Morrison in Loughterush other than in the tithes in >> 1826.There were no comprehensive records of when people first acquired >> land. Formost 17th century settlers, the first 150 years or so of their >> timein Ireland are lost in the mists of time. Elwyn >>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 03:06, rsmoll999 via CoTyroneList < >> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Peter ... thanks for responding ... the links you sent are not >> working for me. I'll do some more hunting for those sites.Sent from my >> Sprint Samsung Galaxy S9. >>>> -------- Original message --------From: Peter McKittrick via >> CoTyroneList <[email protected]> Date: 5/21/20 8:43 PM >> (GMT-06:00) To: "CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List" < >> [email protected]> Cc: Peter McKittrick < >> [email protected]> Subject: [CoTyroneMailingList] Morrison Family >> Name in Ulster 1610 - 1633 A past Genealogical Society of Victoria >> (Australia) handout indicates that Morrison appears in Scottish names in >> Tyrone, 1610-1633 based on muster rolls and estate maps.Sources: >> Brian Orr, Plantation of Ireland and the Ulster Scots published on >> http://www.irishclans.com/ <http://www.irishclans.com/> >> Gwen Rawlings-Barry, The Ulster Plantation (1605-1697) published on >> http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/ < >> http://www.canadasulsterscots.tripod.com/> (website not found).Peter >> McKittrick> On 22 May 2020, at 10:23 am, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList < >> [email protected]> wrote:> > Rick, My guess is that they >> could have been part of the plantation of Ulster in the 17thC. I >> suspect(based on my surname) that my ancestors may have been part of that >> event too but have not been able to find any records of who arrived from >> where and when. Any help (thanks Len S. for your earlier help) would be >> appreciated. Gordon> > On 22/05/2020 3:14 am, Rick Smoll via CoTyroneList >> wrote:>> My Morrison ancestors occupied a farm in the Loughterush townland >> (Kilskeery Parish) from at least the mid 1700s until 1970 when the last >> Morrison on the farm passed away (he was a bachelor), and the farm was sold >> at public auction. The earliest ancestor I have found records for was >> Edward Morrison, and the earliest reference to Loughterush was with the >> birth of a daughter of his in 1781.>> My question is: Is there a way to >> find out when the Morrisons first came to occupy the farm in Loughterush?>> >> Thank you for any help on this.>> >> Rick Smoll>> >> _______________________________________________>> CoTyroneList Mailing >> List>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected]>> >> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com>> >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY> > -- > >> _________________________________> Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, >> South Australia.> Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon >> <http://www.ozemail.com.au/%7Eneredon> Skype id: neredon> Emails: >> [email protected] [email protected]> > >>> _______________________________________________> CoTyroneList Mailing >> List> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected]> >> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com> >> Mailing List Archive: >> https://goo.gl/mQCKrY_______________________________________________CoTyroneList >> Mailing ListMailing List Email Address: >> [email protected] Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.comMailing >> List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>>> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>>> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>>> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>>> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>>> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>>> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >> >> > _______________________________________________ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY _______________________________________________ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
