Don,
Interesting thoughts and links. I read through them all. :)
Some points: I wasn't expressing an opinion as to the degree of
difference between "God's komi" and "Man's komi". 2.5 seems perfectly
reasonable (at least with current levels of skill).
As far as it being widely believed that proper komi is independent of
board size for all but the smallest boards -- I can't see a decent
argument for assuming this. I can definitely see an argument that
proper komi might *oscillate* around some target as boards get
sufficiently huge, but it seems quite possible that the exact number
of playable points on the board can result in some minor differences
in score even as board sizes get very large, and it seems like it
would take a rigorous proof for one to abandon that reasonable
possibility.
David
On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:39 AM, Don Dailey wrote:
David Schneider-Joseph wrote:
On Feb 11, 2008, at 8:42 PM, Don Dailey wrote:
David Schneider-Joseph wrote:
On that topic - might it be possible that the notion of a "proper
komi", derived as it is from "the hand of God" (perfect play), will
invariably be too high for any actual go players which would be an
interesting match for each other?
I guess it's possible. I don't think it's likely but I guess
nobody
can say with 100% certainty what the correct komi really is at any
non-trivial board size.
Why not likely? It seems a virtual guarantee to me. By definition,
komi is proportional to the value of moving first. Likewise, by
definition, your skill is the amount of value you get out of a move.
Therefore, better players should play with higher komi.
Hi David,
It's possible (even easy) to construct positions where one side has a
win, but the win requires careful accurate play or it loses. Such
positions may actually be a practical advantage to the losing side if
two equal players do not understand how to play it.
The opening position in GO is such a position. I believe that if you
pick the "correct" komi, whatever that may be, it's probably easier
for
white to win.
This would imply an adjustment downward from "god's number." This is
essentially your argument and I agree with it.
But how much adjustment? This is where we disagree. You seem to
believe that the adjustment should be quite large. I disagree
because
even though I believe the white pieces are easier to play, I still
believe that a won position is still an advantage for reasonably
competent players. A strange consequence of your position is that
you
have to believe that a human player should prefer to start the game
from
a dead lost position.
For instance if 12.0 is God's komi and 9.5 is man's komi, then 9.5
gives
even chances in a position that is actually lost, and anything higher
gives white a practical advantage in a dead lost position!
Even though I believe as you do that it takes more skill to equalize
with white (given the correct komi), I believe that 1/2 point more or
less gives one side a winning game, and that is enough for players of
modest skill to have the better winning chances.
It's pretty clear however that white is easier to play ...
If you play random vs random, 3.5 seems to be right komi. Since we
both agree that komi should be AT LEAST 7.5, this implies that it's
easier to play the white pieces for a player of limited skill (of
course
assuming komi is set correctly, whatever that may be.) And sure
enough,
if you use weak but not random program, the komi required jumps up
very
quickly. Even very weak programs seem to require about 7.5 komi, if
they are beyond just weak beginner.
But then even programs enormously stronger still require 7.5 komi.
My feelings on this seem to match at least one source:
Look here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Komi
Here is an excerpt:
It is widely believed that the correct komi is independent of board
size
for all but the smallest boards. For area scoring, this would give 7
for
9x9+, 8 for 8x8, 7 for 7x7, 4 for 6x6, 25 for 5x5 (w cannot live), 0
for
4x4, 9 for 3x3, 4 for 2x2 with a superko rule, and 0 for 1x1. (these
need to be verified)
Despite all of this, I allowed the possibility that it's possible
that
even God cannot win at 7.5 komi.
- Don
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