Regarding the Keel issue.  If she took a hard grounding, likely rocks you are looking at radiating damage from the point of impact.  My experience was on a J29, hitting a rock solid on the front of the keel.  Stopped us dead from 5 it?s to 0. Keel stub bedding did not let go, but we did have deformation in the lead keel from the bolts plus the impact in the lead.  Action there was a replacement of the keel.  

Friends boat, C&C 36, didn?t have the same good luck.  Rocks again, but keel was pushed up, cracking the stringers, and the hull, some water seepage due to impact, but the boat was not structurally sound.  Hauled and she was repaired but not after extensive work was done to repair the structural integrity.

My advice, what does your ?gut? tell you?

If it were a car, and you can see there was undisclosed damage but you couldn?t tell what extent but it looked relatively substantial, what would you do.  

Me, i would walk away..... 

You are likely looking at a bill of $10K or more.  This is not just a marine survey, a lot of exploratory work would need to be done to ensure the structural integrity, again.  there will be other boats......

Bob
C&C 121
(On my 3rd C&C)


On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 5:06 PM <cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:



1. Re: Potential "Next" Boat - Keel Issue ?'s (Marek Dziedzic)

2. Re: Potential "Next" Boat - Keel Issue ?'s (Bill Coleman)





----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 21:03:42 +0000

From: Marek Dziedzic <dziedzi...@hotmail.com>

Subject: Stus-List Re: Potential "Next" Boat - Keel Issue ?'s

To: Stus-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>

Message-ID: <DM6PR02MB6541E1CA3E0CFCB560073220CE350@DM6PR02MB6541.nam

prd02.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM6PR02MB6541E1

CA3E0CFCB560073220CE350DM6PR02MB6541namp_"



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Anything can be repaired, but I wouldn't undertake that job - I would walk=

away. It is quite possible that the structural stringers in the bottom of =

the hull have been broken.



On the other hand, if you can verify that structurally everything is sound,=

it might just need some patching and fairing. Unfortunately, the bottom wa=

s painted - possibly to hide the damage.



Marek

Ottawa On





-------- Original message --------

From: nausetbe...@optonline.net

Date: 2020-09-28 16:47 (GMT-05:00)

To: 'Stus-List' <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>

Subject: Stus-List Potential "Next" Boat - Keel Issue ?'s



I looked at a boat yesterday that seemed like a good contender for a =93nex=

t=94 boat, right up until just prior to leaving I looked more closely at th=

e keel and found something that does not look particularly good. I am hopi=

ng for some sage advice from the list, as in a) walk away, or b) might be r=

epaired, and if so what would be entailed and is it worth it. This would h=

ave to be on the current owner=92s tab, or a very hefty discount in the pri=

ce.



I tried to attach low res pics but that exceeded the list max message size,=

so here is a link I hope works:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNHJ22k8kS3ukfBzXz67enViRMDw3GAOASwiS4=

9uupKViTIDFeNzLj1LE_pav81Yw?key=3DQkR1X0FXWlgyclBzY1JYcUtIckRJRGh3dzIyMURR



The keel has a fairly significant crack extending at least 18=94 aft from t=

he leading edge. [The bottom was recently painted and I did not try to fol=

low it further aft.] That gap [in the attached photos] is at least 3/8=94 =

on the horizontal axis and about =BC=94 on the vertical. The trailing edge=

has some cracks which are not overly visible, again due to the bottom pain=

t. Unfortunately I did not look closely at / around the keel bolts, nor do=

I have any internal photos, as I noticed this after the boat was closed up=

. The boat is 4 =BD hours away so getting more photos is not feasible.



To my untrained eye it appears there was a hard grounding and the keel almo=

st seems to have shifted aft in addition to down, based on the angle of the=

line from the fairing of the hull down to the leading edge of the keel. B=

ut there does not appear to be any movement aft at the trailing edge, thoug=

h possibly it was punched up. This does not appear to be along the sump / =

keel joint as the crack is angled upwards and is not horizontal. The owner=

claims there have been no hard groundings when asked directly, only a hand=

ful of soft groundings, predominantly in sand, but I have read even that ca=

n do damage. The boat was recently under contract and surveyed and that bu=

yer decided against going forward. The reasons given by the broker did not=

include any mention of damage revealed during the survey. I do not have a=

copy of that buyers survey.



Any thoughts on what would need to be done to remedy this, or am I better o=

ff to move on and keep looking? Should the keel be dropped and the keel bo=

lts examined? Or would there be other, less intrusive / expensive fixes wh=

ich would be sufficient and safe? I realize it is difficult to really dete=

rmine the best repair without physically examining the boat but any advice =

on what likely would be required is appreciated.



Thanks,

Brian







--_000_DM6PR02MB6541E1CA3E0CFCB560073220CE350DM6PR02MB6541namp_

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Anything can be repaired,&nbsp; but I wouldn't undertake that job - I would=

walk away. It is quite possible that the structural stringers in the botto=

m of the hull have been broken.&nbsp;

<div dir=3D"auto"><br>

</div>

<div dir=3D"auto">On the other hand, if you can verify that structurally ev=

erything is sound, it might just need some patching and fairing. Unfortunat=

ely, the bottom was painted&nbsp; - possibly to hide the damage.&nbsp;</div=

>

<div dir=3D"auto"><br>

</div>

<div dir=3D"auto">Marek&nbsp;</div>

<div dir=3D"auto">Ottawa On&nbsp;</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>-------- Original message --------</div>

<div>From: nausetbe...@optonline.net </div>

<div>Date: 2020-09-28 16:47 (GMT-05:00) </div>

<div>To: 'Stus-List' &lt;cnc-list@cnc-list.com&gt; </div>

<div>Subject: Stus-List Potential &quot;Next&quot; Boat - Keel Issue ?'s </=

div>

<div><br>

</div>

<div>

<div class=3D"WordSection1">

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I looked at a boat yesterday that seemed like a good=

contender for a =93next=94 boat, right up until just prior to leaving I lo=

oked more closely at the keel and found something that does not look partic=

ularly good.&nbsp; I am hoping for some sage

advice from the list, as in a) walk away, or b) might be repaired, and if =

so what would be entailed and is it worth it.&nbsp; This would have to be o=

n the current owner=92s tab, or a very hefty discount in the price.&nbsp;

</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I tried to attach low res pics but that exceeded the=

list max message size, so here is a link I hope works:&nbsp;

</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href="">share/AF1QipNHJ=

22k8kS3ukfBzXz67enViRMDw3GAOASwiS49uupKViTIDFeNzLj1LE_pav81Yw?key=3DQkR1X0F=

XWlgyclBzY1JYcUtIckRJRGh3dzIyMURR"><span style=3D"color:blue">https://photo=

s.google.com/share/AF1QipNHJ22k8kS3ukfBzXz67enViRMDw3GAOASwiS49uupKViTIDFeN=

zLj1LE_pav81Yw?key=3DQkR1X0FXWlgyclBzY1JYcUtIckRJRGh3dzIyMURR</span></a></p=

>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The keel has a fairly significant crack extending at=

least 18=94 aft from the leading edge.&nbsp; [The bottom was recently pain=

ted and I did not try to follow it further aft.]&nbsp; That gap [in the att=

ached photos] is at least 3/8=94 on the horizontal

axis and about =BC=94 on the vertical.&nbsp; The trailing edge has some cr=

acks which are not overly visible, again due to the bottom paint.&nbsp; Unf=

ortunately I did not look closely at / around the keel bolts, nor do I have=

any internal photos, as I noticed this after

the boat was closed up.&nbsp; The boat is 4 =BD hours away so getting more=

photos is not feasible. &nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To my untrained eye it appears there was a hard grou=

nding and the keel almost seems to have shifted aft in addition to down, ba=

sed on the angle of the line from the fairing of the hull down to the leadi=

ng edge of the keel.&nbsp; But there does

not appear to be any movement aft at the trailing edge, though possibly it=

was punched up.&nbsp; This does not appear to be along the sump / keel joi=

nt as the crack is angled upwards and is not horizontal.&nbsp; The owner cl=

aims there have been no hard groundings when

asked directly, only a handful of soft groundings, predominantly in sand, =

but I have read even that can do damage.&nbsp; The boat was recently under =

contract and surveyed and that buyer decided against going forward.&nbsp; T=

he reasons given by the broker did not include

any mention of damage revealed during the survey.&nbsp; I do not have a co=

py of that buyers survey.&nbsp;

</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any thoughts on what would need to be done to remedy=

this, or am I better off to move on and keep looking?&nbsp; Should the kee=

l be dropped and the keel bolts examined?&nbsp; Or would there be other, le=

ss intrusive / expensive fixes which would be

sufficient and safe?&nbsp; I realize it is difficult to really determine t=

he best repair without physically examining the boat but any advice on what=

likely would be required is appreciated.&nbsp;

</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, </p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brian</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

</div>

</div>

</body>

</html>



--_000_DM6PR02MB6541E1CA3E0CFCB560073220CE350DM6PR02MB6541namp_--



------------------------------



Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 17:06:01 -0400

From: "Bill Coleman" <colt...@gmail.com>

Subject: Stus-List Re: Potential "Next" Boat - Keel Issue ?'s

To: "'Stus-List'" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>

Message-ID: <227001d695db$2c36e5a0$84a4b0e0$@com>

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

boundary="----=_NextPart_000_2271_01D695B9.A52545A0"



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Judging by the aft section, it doesn=92t seem to have shifted aft. Looks =

more

like the front keel bolts needed tightening for quite awhile, and =

weren=92t .



=20



=20



Bill Coleman



Entrada, Erie, PA



=20



=20



=20



From: nausetbe...@optonline.net [mailto:nausetbe...@optonline.net]=20

Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 4:48 PM

To: 'Stus-List'

Subject: Stus-List Potential "Next" Boat - Keel Issue ?'s



=20



I looked at a boat yesterday that seemed like a good contender for a =

=93next=94

boat, right up until just prior to leaving I looked more closely at the =

keel

and found something that does not look particularly good. I am hoping =

for

some sage advice from the list, as in a) walk away, or b) might be =

repaired,

and if so what would be entailed and is it worth it. This would have to =

be

on the current owner=92s tab, or a very hefty discount in the price. =20



=20



I tried to attach low res pics but that exceeded the list max message =

size,

so here is a link I hope works: =20



=20

<https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNHJ22k8kS3ukfBzXz67enViRMDw3GAOASw=

iS4

9uupKViTIDFeNzLj1LE_pav81Yw?key=3DQkR1X0FXWlgyclBzY1JYcUtIckRJRGh3dzIyMUR=

R>

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNHJ22k8kS3ukfBzXz67enViRMDw3GAOASwi=

S49

uupKViTIDFeNzLj1LE_pav81Yw?key=3DQkR1X0FXWlgyclBzY1JYcUtIckRJRGh3dzIyMURR=





=20



The keel has a fairly significant crack extending at least 18=94 aft =

from the

leading edge. [The bottom was recently painted and I did not try to =

follow

it further aft.] That gap [in the attached photos] is at least 3/8=94 =

on the

horizontal axis and about =BC=94 on the vertical. The trailing edge has =

some

cracks which are not overly visible, again due to the bottom paint.

Unfortunately I did not look closely at / around the keel bolts, nor do =

I

have any internal photos, as I noticed this after the boat was closed =

up.

The boat is 4 =BD hours away so getting more photos is not feasible. =20



=20



To my untrained eye it appears there was a hard grounding and the keel

almost seems to have shifted aft in addition to down, based on the angle =

of

the line from the fairing of the hull down to the leading edge of the =

keel.

But there does not appear to be any movement aft at the trailing edge,

though possibly it was punched up. This does not appear to be along the

sump / keel joint as the crack is angled upwards and is not horizontal. =

The

owner claims there have been no hard groundings when asked directly, =

only a

handful of soft groundings, predominantly in sand, but I have read even =

that

can do damage. The boat was recently under contract and surveyed and =

that

buyer decided against going forward. The reasons given by the broker =

did

not include any mention of damage revealed during the survey. I do not =

have

a copy of that buyers survey. =20



=20



Any thoughts on what would need to be done to remedy this, or am I =

better

off to move on and keep looking? Should the keel be dropped and the =

keel

bolts examined? Or would there be other, less intrusive / expensive =

fixes

which would be sufficient and safe? I realize it is difficult to really

determine the best repair without physically examining the boat but any

advice on what likely would be required is appreciated. =20



=20



Thanks,=20



Brian



=20



=20





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<div class=3DSection1>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Judging by the aft =

section, it doesn&#8217;t

seem to have shifted aft. Looks more like the front keel bolts needed =

tightening

for quite awhile, and weren&#8217;t .<o:p></o:p></span></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =

style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =

style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Bill =

Coleman<o:p></o:p></span></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Entrada, Erie, =

PA<o:p></o:p></span></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =

style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =

style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =

style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>



<div>



<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =

0in 0in 0in'>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=

</b><span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>

nausetbe...@optonline.net [mailto:nausetbe...@optonline.net] <br>

<b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 28, 2020 4:48 PM<br>

<b>To:</b> 'Stus-List'<br>

<b>Subject:</b> Stus-List Potential &quot;Next&quot; Boat - Keel Issue =

?'s<o:p></o:p></span></p>



</div>



</div>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal>I looked at a boat yesterday that seemed like a =

good

contender for a &#8220;next&#8221; boat, right up until just prior to =

leaving I

looked more closely at the keel and found something that does not look

particularly good.&nbsp; I am hoping for some sage advice from the list, =

as in

a) walk away, or b) might be repaired, and if so what would be entailed =

and is

it worth it.&nbsp; This would have to be on the current owner&#8217;s =

tab, or a

very hefty discount in the price.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal>I tried to attach low res pics but that exceeded =

the list

max message size, so here is a link I hope works:&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><a

href="">share/AF1QipNHJ22k8kS3ukfBzXz67enViRMDw=

3GAOASwiS49uupKViTIDFeNzLj1LE_pav81Yw?key=3DQkR1X0FXWlgyclBzY1JYcUtIckRJR=

Gh3dzIyMURR"><span

style=3D'color:blue'>https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNHJ22k8kS3ukfB=

zXz67enViRMDw3GAOASwiS49uupKViTIDFeNzLj1LE_pav81Yw?key=3DQkR1X0FXWlgyclBz=

Y1JYcUtIckRJRGh3dzIyMURR</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal>The keel has a fairly significant crack extending =

at least

18&#8221; aft from the leading edge.&nbsp; [The bottom was recently =

painted and

I did not try to follow it further aft.]&nbsp; That gap [in the attached

photos] is at least 3/8&#8221; on the horizontal axis and about =

=BC&#8221; on the

vertical.&nbsp; The trailing edge has some cracks which are not overly =

visible,

again due to the bottom paint.&nbsp; Unfortunately I did not look =

closely at /

around the keel bolts, nor do I have any internal photos, as I noticed =

this

after the boat was closed up.&nbsp; The boat is 4 =BD hours away so =

getting more

photos is not feasible. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal>To my untrained eye it appears there was a hard =

grounding

and the keel almost seems to have shifted aft in addition to down, based =

on the

angle of the line from the fairing of the hull down to the leading edge =

of the

keel.&nbsp; But there does not appear to be any movement aft at the =

trailing

edge, though possibly it was punched up.&nbsp; This does not appear to =

be along

the sump / keel joint as the crack is angled upwards and is not

horizontal.&nbsp; The owner claims there have been no hard groundings =

when

asked directly, only a handful of soft groundings, predominantly in =

sand, but I

have read even that can do damage.&nbsp; The boat was recently under =

contract

and surveyed and that buyer decided against going forward.&nbsp; The =

reasons

given by the broker did not include any mention of damage revealed =

during the

survey.&nbsp; I do not have a copy of that buyers survey.&nbsp; =

<o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal>Any thoughts on what would need to be done to =

remedy this,

or am I better off to move on and keep looking?&nbsp; Should the keel be

dropped and the keel bolts examined?&nbsp; Or would there be other, less

intrusive / expensive fixes which would be sufficient and safe?&nbsp; I =

realize

it is difficult to really determine the best repair without physically

examining the boat but any advice on what likely would be required is

appreciated.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks, <o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal>Brian<o:p></o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>



</div>



</body>



</html>



------=_NextPart_000_2271_01D695B9.A52545A0--



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