Hi Josh,
This reply is really for Mr. Noragon.
You and everybody else agree on the concept that
Sail CE vs. Yacht CLR is going to influence
weather helm. Any objection to moving the
discussion on ways to arrive and influence that
relationship to a new thread? (it might become huge :)
In the interest of stepping a mast on a Landfill
38* I recommend the following simple steps: mast
placement, shroud static tune, shroud dynamic tune.
Mast placement:
Since we don't have history, I would start with
the mast centred in step and adjust forestay
length* to arrive at desired rake. If you come
against the aft partners (deck elevation) then
bang the mast base forward (similar if aft adjustment is necessary).
Static Shroud Tune:*
Centre mast athwartship using this technique,
second paragraph At The
Dock http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/masttuning/tuning.htm
Next, I tighten the lower shrouds alternately and
bang on 'em occasionally until the low "thud"
becomes a low "bing". I keep the tighten sequence
until they all have the same nice "bing". (low G
for my wire, if I remember correctly)
Similiar for the upper shrouds. (but a higher note when finished)
Block the mast at the partners and have a beer.
You have just tuned a rig, by ear.
Dynamic Shroud Tune.
The sailing adjustments finish rig tuning and are
as important as above. I usually do a couple of
dynamic tunes simply because of weather
opportunities aren't always there the first sail
out. For this I do a small leeward adjustment,
tack, adjust leeward, tack, etc. instead of
luffing as recommended by the above link.
* - if you are racing and need repeatable
pre-race rig settings then a Loos gauge is a handy kit for Static Shroud Tune.
- not once was forestay tension mentioned :)
- the other thing I couldn't resist was the
landfill comment. this is an unkind and
unwarranted remark oft made in the racing
community, jealous, I think, they don't appreciate comfort.
I would love to upgrade to a Landfall 38 and cruise the Caribbean for bit.
Oops, gotta go. Looks like a call from Rich,
inviting me over for a beer (in case the sale falls through). Hah ha.
Cheers, Russ
Sweet 35 mk-1
Nanaimo
At 05:59 PM 03/05/2015, you wrote:
Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case)
that more rake usually equals more weather
helm. However, while discussing rake we are
only taking into consideration the movement of
the mast head. The act of moving the head back
actually does two things. One, it tilts or
rotates the sail on approximately on it's
tack. Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the mast is moving aft.
Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible?
The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was,
"What would happen if he moved the blocks at the
mast step so as the move the foot forward?"
I answered that it would increase the rake and
then incorrectly stated that increased rake
would decrease weather helm. Fellow listers
quickly corrected my error...repeatedly. After
being corrected for the third or forth time I
decided to reeducate myself. During this review
it occured to me that all I was previously
considering was the rake. Rich's comments made
me consider the placement of the sail in
relation to the boat. As such I possed the
question to Rich that moving the foot forward
does increase rake but actually moves the bulk
of the sail forward. What is the net effect?
There it is, fire at will.
Josh
Rich,
Less rake = less weather helm. If you go far
enough, you end up with lee helm, which can be
dangerous. I doubt you have enough adjustment to get that far though.
Jake
Jake Brodersen
Midnight Mistress
C&C 35 Mk-III
Hampton VA
From: CnC-List
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM
To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List
Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Hi All. Ive been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below.
Perhaps someone else might like to answer Joshs questions as I cant
Rich Knowles
Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.
On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley
<<mailto:muckl...@gmail.com>muckl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the
foot forward? The original poster was asking
about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4
blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all
the way aft. I assumed that in moving the
blocks to move the mast forward that this would
move the foot forward as well. No mention of
changing headstay length so I assumed it to be
the fixed point in all of this. Based on these
assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and
the luff edge of the sail would also move
forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right?
Josh
On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, "Rich Knowles"
<<mailto:r...@sailpower.ca>r...@sailpower.ca> wrote:
I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the
trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake
increases the luff must move along with it.
Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this
than I can for you. I'm at work but will post
our conversation to the masses when I get home.
RK
On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley
<<mailto:muckl...@gmail.com>muckl...@gmail.com> wrote:
What you said was that moving the mast aft moves
the center of effort aft. Since the original
question was about placement of the mast foot
being all the way aft and the consequences of
moving it forward I assumed you were referring
to the foot. I had originally stated that
moving the foot forward would increase rake and
then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce
weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I
conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm.
So what is the combined effect of moving the
luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two
actions have opposite effects correct?
Josh
On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, "Rich Knowles"
<<mailto:r...@sailpower.ca>r...@sailpower.ca> wrote:
Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail
effort aft and increases weather helm. Simple geometry.
Rich Knowles
Nanaimo, BC
INDIGO LF38
Almost sold in Halifax, NS.
On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via
CnC-List <<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm.
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, "N7FN--- via CnC-List"
<<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
Hi,
I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in
the mast step your mast is positioned.
Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step
but I can see that the mast was positioned in
the step farther forward at one time.
The only reason that it is all the way aft is
because that is where the workers in the yard put it.
Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the
mast was positioned all the way forward as
opposed to all the way aft? I have seen
adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats.
Frank Noragon
C&C 38LF, s/n 001
Rose City Yacht Club
Portland, Oregon
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