In nova Scotia currently all boats have same rating. Sis. Stuck in snow.  None 
are moving



Seriously it is often stated that in other than fun races spin and non spin 
should be separate fleets.



Mike

phrf nova Scotia
currently in sugarloaf, Maine

________________________________
From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of robert via CnC-List 
[cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: March 24, 2015 12:02 AM
To: Rick Brass; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

Rick said " If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 C&C sailboats competing in a single 
event over the same course at the same time, but in different (spin & Jam) 
classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat is the best 
performer?"

Here in Nova Scotia, if we wish to race, we must register with the Nova Scotia 
Yachting Association....it provides a PHRF rating based on a declaration, e.g 
sails, fixed and/or folding propellers, etc.  For example, (from my memory 
which might be fuzzy on this) the NSYA rates our C&C 32 at a base PHRF of 165 
with a 150% Genoa....but with no spin (+18) and a two blade fixed prop (+6) our 
PHRF to race is 189.  Here is the website if you are interested:

http://www.sailnovascotia.ca/racing/phrf-racing/phrf-ns.html

Don't overlook good in the pursuit of perfection....because what you are trying 
to achieve, there is 'no perfection'.   And think about giving every competitor 
a bottle of an adult beverage....that will distract them from where they placed!

Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - 84
Halifax, N.S.




.
On 2015-03-22 6:00 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List wrote:
I’m well aware of the problems of running Spin and Jam boats in the same 
fleets, and the frustrations of PHRF racing in fleets that have a wide range of 
boat types ranging from sport boats like the Viper to boats like the San Juan 
21. Time on Time is a boon to fairness in a fleet race, but I can’t think of a 
way that you could set up fair starts for a pursuit race using time on time.

Since the discussion is turning to these things, perhaps I should clarify the 
reason for my question, and rephrase it.

Pirates on the Pungo is an annual charity regatta, held in Belhaven, NC in 
mid-May. (This year it will be May 15-17) Most keelboats compete in a longish 
pursuit race on Saturday, with awards given out on Saturday night at the dinner 
dance, and a second (optional) race on Sunday morning. One designs and dinghies 
compete in windward-leeward races on both days. The pursuit course is typically 
the one I described – about 10 NM with N,S, E, and W legs, starting and ending 
inside the breakwater in the harbor. The keelboats compete for three deep 
prizes in three classes: Spinnaker, PHRF Non-Spinnaker, and Cruising. Cruising 
boats are white sails and not generally raced. Usually there are about 30 
keelboats, with Cruising being the largest class.

I plan to conduct a “C&C Rendezvous” within the Pirates on the Pungo regatta. I 
know of about 10 C&Cs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, which allows travel on 
Friday to arrive for the Skipper’s Reception, compete on Saturday, and sail 
home on Sunday. (There are actually 5 C&Cs at the River Rat Yacht Club just 5 
miles away) And another 10 or so are within 2 day’s travel. Using the event as 
a venue makes everything really simple. Someone else provides the RC, committee 
boats, marks, photographer, the Friday evening cocktail party, Saturday 
breakfast, Saturday steak and seafood buffet, Sunday brunch, the band for the 
dance, and beer and soda for the weekend. There is free dockage available in 
Belhaven. And since the regatta is part of the Belhaven Pirate Fest this year 
there is even street music and shore side activities on Saturday for family and 
kids who don’t want to race.

All I need to do is arrange a race within a race for the C&C owners to 
stimulate competition and camaraderie, provide a prize (and I think one of 
Andrew Burton’s half hulls of the winner’s own boat is a really nice prize), 
figure out how to determine the winner, and get the word out to C&C owners.

Figuring out how to determine who gets the prize is the reason for asking the 
original question. Participants will be competing for the overall prizes in one 
of three classes, in a pursuit race based on PHRF ratings. I’ve been involved 
in regattas where the overall winner got a prize for being first in the “most 
competitive” class, but never thought the methods for determining “most 
competitive” were very equitable. The other alternative I could think of was to 
determine an adjustment to the PHRF ratings of the JAM boats, and then score 
the C&Cs based on their actual time on the course just like you would a Time on 
Distance race.

So let me rephrase my question: If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 C&C sailboats 
competing in a single event over the same course at the same time, but in 
different (spin & Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which 
boat is the best performer?

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Rick Brass
Washington, NC




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:58 PM
To: Michael Brown; CNC boat owners, cnc-list
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

Very good summary of things I saw too when racing against different style boats 
in the same fleet.

Instead of the fleet placings, we found we could measure our performance best 
by comparing us against similar C&Cs.  I lost interest in racing when similar 
boats stopped competing and we had to race against a Viper 640, a Pearson 
Triton 28 and a J-24 and a J-28 all in the same fleet.  Apples and oranges.  I 
see why one design is so popular and so competitive.


Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md

________________________________
From: "Michael Brown via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 12:42:12 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

> consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin
> and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet

Typical it works poorly. On moderately heavy days were most boats can
get up towards hull speed and sail deep downwind the JAM boats will be
about as fast as the spin boats but will carry a +12 to +23 advantage.

On very light days if the scoring is time-on-time while everyone is gently
drifting downwind the boats with a +24 will be accumulating too much
adjusted time.

In moderate wind conditions the spin boats will sail to their ratings, but
so will the JAM boats. Might be fair for those days.

>The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and
> finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs.

For PHRF Lake Ontario the ratings are based on windward - leeward courses
with 1 mile legs in about 4 - 18 kts of wind. The ratings were never designed
for long distance races.

I raced last summer in a mixed FS - NFS fleet. Well, hard to call it racing and
I am not sure about the summer part either. Fleet spread was 91, and went
from a Kirby 30 and J/80 to a Sprinta Sport. I managed to see first hand all
the ways mixed fleets and wide PHRF spreads do not work.

At least it does reduce the pile ups at the marks you get in a OD fleet.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Brass via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours
in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to
come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin
and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet.

What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and
politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach
a conclusion.

I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a
non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with
small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in
non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit
for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of
the boat's PHRF.

What I'm trying to do is plan for a "C&C Cup" to be run as part of a local
charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend
of May 15-17. More on that later.

The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and
finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of
about 15 C&Cs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet
would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To
promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too
much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by
Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet.

So help me here:

How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and
JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are
the results based on your experience?

Rick Brass
Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2
la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1
Washington, NC

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