Rick said "*If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 C&C sailboats competing in a
single event over the same course at the same time, but in different
(spin & Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat
is the best performer?"
Here in Nova Scotia, if we wish to race, we must register with the Nova
Scotia Yachting Association....it provides a PHRF rating based on a
declaration, e.g sails, fixed and/or folding propellers, etc. For
example, (from my memory which might be fuzzy on this) the NSYA rates
our C&C 32 at a base PHRF of 165 with a 150% Genoa....but with no spin
(+18) and a two blade fixed prop (+6) our PHRF to race is 189. Here is
the website if you are interested:
*
**http://www.sailnovascotia.ca/racing/phrf-racing/phrf-ns.html
*Don't overlook good in the pursuit of perfection....because what you
are trying to achieve, there is 'no perfection'. And think about
giving every competitor a bottle of an adult beverage....that will
distract them from where they placed!
Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - 84
Halifax, N.S.
*
.
On 2015-03-22 6:00 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List wrote:
I’m well aware of the problems of running Spin and Jam boats in the
same fleets, and the frustrations of PHRF racing in fleets that have a
wide range of boat types ranging from sport boats like the Viper to
boats like the San Juan 21. Time on Time is a boon to fairness in a
fleet race, but I can’t think of a way that you could set up fair
starts for a pursuit race using time on time.
Since the discussion is turning to these things, perhaps I should
clarify the reason for my question, and rephrase it.
Pirates on the Pungo is an annual charity regatta, held in Belhaven,
NC in mid-May. (This year it will be May 15-17) Most keelboats compete
in a longish pursuit race on Saturday, with awards given out on
Saturday night at the dinner dance, and a second (optional) race on
Sunday morning. One designs and dinghies compete in windward-leeward
races on both days. The pursuit course is typically the one I
described – about 10 NM with N,S, E, and W legs, starting and ending
inside the breakwater in the harbor. The keelboats compete for three
deep prizes in three classes: Spinnaker, PHRF Non-Spinnaker, and
Cruising. Cruising boats are white sails and not generally raced.
Usually there are about 30 keelboats, with Cruising being the largest
class.
I plan to conduct a “C&C Rendezvous” within the Pirates on the Pungo
regatta. I know of about 10 C&Cs within a day’s travel of Belhaven,
which allows travel on Friday to arrive for the Skipper’s Reception,
compete on Saturday, and sail home on Sunday. (There are actually 5
C&Cs at the River Rat Yacht Club just 5 miles away) And another 10 or
so are within 2 day’s travel. Using the event as a venue makes
everything really simple. Someone else provides the RC, committee
boats, marks, photographer, the Friday evening cocktail party,
Saturday breakfast, Saturday steak and seafood buffet, Sunday brunch,
the band for the dance, and beer and soda for the weekend. There is
free dockage available in Belhaven. And since the regatta is part of
the Belhaven Pirate Fest this year there is even street music and
shore side activities on Saturday for family and kids who don’t want
to race.
All I need to do is arrange a race within a race for the C&C owners to
stimulate competition and camaraderie, provide a prize (and I think
one of Andrew Burton’s half hulls of the winner’s own boat is a really
nice prize), figure out how to determine the winner, and get the word
out to C&C owners.
Figuring out how to determine who gets the prize is the reason for
asking the original question. Participants will be competing for the
overall prizes in one of three classes, in a pursuit race based on
PHRF ratings. I’ve been involved in regattas where the overall winner
got a prize for being first in the “most competitive” class, but never
thought the methods for determining “most competitive” were very
equitable. The other alternative I could think of was to determine an
adjustment to the PHRF ratings of the JAM boats, and then score the
C&Cs based on their actual time on the course just like you would a
Time on Distance race.
So let me rephrase my question: *If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 C&C
sailboats competing in a single event over the same course at the same
time, but in different (spin & Jam) classes, what is an equitable way
to determine which boat is the best performer?*
All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Rick Brass
Washington, NC
*From:*CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of
*Chuck S via CnC-List
*Sent:* Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:58 PM
*To:* Michael Brown; CNC boat owners, cnc-list
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single
fleet
Very good summary of things I saw too when racing against different
style boats in the same fleet.
Instead of the fleet placings, we found we could measure our
performance best by comparing us against similar C&Cs. I lost
interest in racing when similar boats stopped competing and we had to
race against a Viper 640, a Pearson Triton 28 and a J-24 and a J-28
all in the same fleet. Apples and oranges. I see why one design is
so popular and so competitive.
Chuck
*/Resolute/*
1990 C&C 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *"Michael Brown via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
*To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Sent: *Sunday, March 22, 2015 12:42:12 PM
*Subject: *Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single
fleet
> consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin
> and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet
Typical it works poorly. On moderately heavy days were most boats can
get up towards hull speed and sail deep downwind the JAM boats will be
about as fast as the spin boats but will carry a +12 to +23 advantage.
On very light days if the scoring is time-on-time while everyone is gently
drifting downwind the boats with a +24 will be accumulating too much
adjusted time.
In moderate wind conditions the spin boats will sail to their ratings, but
so will the JAM boats. Might be fair for those days.
>The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and
> finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs.
For PHRF Lake Ontario the ratings are based on windward - leeward courses
with 1 mile legs in about 4 - 18 kts of wind. The ratings were never
designed
for long distance races.
I raced last summer in a mixed FS - NFS fleet. Well, hard to call it
racing and
I am not sure about the summer part either. Fleet spread was 91, and went
from a Kirby 30 and J/80 to a Sprinta Sport. I managed to see first
hand all
the ways mixed fleets and wide PHRF spreads do not work.
At least it does reduce the pile ups at the marks you get in a OD fleet.
Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
Rick
Brass via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single
fleet
OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost
two hours
in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages,
trying to
come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to
allow spin
and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet.
What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like
economists and
politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would
never reach
a conclusion.
I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin
and a
non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local
organizations with
small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of
boats in
non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see,
the credit
for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or
10-15% of
the boat's PHRF.
What I'm trying to do is plan for a "C&C Cup" to be run as part of
a local
charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on
the weekend
of May 15-17. More on that later.
The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that
starts and
finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs.
I know of
about 15 C&Cs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing
the fleet
would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real
racers. To
promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to
pony up too
much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own
boat made by
Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet.
So help me here:
How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings
between Spin and
JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how
equitable are
the results based on your experience?
Rick Brass
Imzadi C&C 38 mk 2
la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1
Washington, NC
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