Rick said "*If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 C&C sailboats competing in a single event over the same course at the same time, but in different (spin & Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat is the best performer?"

Here in Nova Scotia, if we wish to race, we must register with the Nova Scotia Yachting Association....it provides a PHRF rating based on a declaration, e.g sails, fixed and/or folding propellers, etc. For example, (from my memory which might be fuzzy on this) the NSYA rates our C&C 32 at a base PHRF of 165 with a 150% Genoa....but with no spin (+18) and a two blade fixed prop (+6) our PHRF to race is 189. Here is the website if you are interested:
*
**http://www.sailnovascotia.ca/racing/phrf-racing/phrf-ns.html

*Don't overlook good in the pursuit of perfection....because what you are trying to achieve, there is 'no perfection'. And think about giving every competitor a bottle of an adult beverage....that will distract them from where they placed!

Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - 84
Halifax, N.S.



*
.
On 2015-03-22 6:00 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List wrote:

I’m well aware of the problems of running Spin and Jam boats in the same fleets, and the frustrations of PHRF racing in fleets that have a wide range of boat types ranging from sport boats like the Viper to boats like the San Juan 21. Time on Time is a boon to fairness in a fleet race, but I can’t think of a way that you could set up fair starts for a pursuit race using time on time.

Since the discussion is turning to these things, perhaps I should clarify the reason for my question, and rephrase it.

Pirates on the Pungo is an annual charity regatta, held in Belhaven, NC in mid-May. (This year it will be May 15-17) Most keelboats compete in a longish pursuit race on Saturday, with awards given out on Saturday night at the dinner dance, and a second (optional) race on Sunday morning. One designs and dinghies compete in windward-leeward races on both days. The pursuit course is typically the one I described – about 10 NM with N,S, E, and W legs, starting and ending inside the breakwater in the harbor. The keelboats compete for three deep prizes in three classes: Spinnaker, PHRF Non-Spinnaker, and Cruising. Cruising boats are white sails and not generally raced. Usually there are about 30 keelboats, with Cruising being the largest class.

I plan to conduct a “C&C Rendezvous” within the Pirates on the Pungo regatta. I know of about 10 C&Cs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, which allows travel on Friday to arrive for the Skipper’s Reception, compete on Saturday, and sail home on Sunday. (There are actually 5 C&Cs at the River Rat Yacht Club just 5 miles away) And another 10 or so are within 2 day’s travel. Using the event as a venue makes everything really simple. Someone else provides the RC, committee boats, marks, photographer, the Friday evening cocktail party, Saturday breakfast, Saturday steak and seafood buffet, Sunday brunch, the band for the dance, and beer and soda for the weekend. There is free dockage available in Belhaven. And since the regatta is part of the Belhaven Pirate Fest this year there is even street music and shore side activities on Saturday for family and kids who don’t want to race.

All I need to do is arrange a race within a race for the C&C owners to stimulate competition and camaraderie, provide a prize (and I think one of Andrew Burton’s half hulls of the winner’s own boat is a really nice prize), figure out how to determine the winner, and get the word out to C&C owners.

Figuring out how to determine who gets the prize is the reason for asking the original question. Participants will be competing for the overall prizes in one of three classes, in a pursuit race based on PHRF ratings. I’ve been involved in regattas where the overall winner got a prize for being first in the “most competitive” class, but never thought the methods for determining “most competitive” were very equitable. The other alternative I could think of was to determine an adjustment to the PHRF ratings of the JAM boats, and then score the C&Cs based on their actual time on the course just like you would a Time on Distance race.

So let me rephrase my question: *If I have a fleet of 8 to 10 C&C sailboats competing in a single event over the same course at the same time, but in different (spin & Jam) classes, what is an equitable way to determine which boat is the best performer?*

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

*From:*CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck S via CnC-List
*Sent:* Sunday, March 22, 2015 1:58 PM
*To:* Michael Brown; CNC boat owners, cnc-list
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

Very good summary of things I saw too when racing against different style boats in the same fleet.

Instead of the fleet placings, we found we could measure our performance best by comparing us against similar C&Cs. I lost interest in racing when similar boats stopped competing and we had to race against a Viper 640, a Pearson Triton 28 and a J-24 and a J-28 all in the same fleet. Apples and oranges. I see why one design is so popular and so competitive.

Chuck
*/Resolute/*
1990 C&C 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From: *"Michael Brown via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
*To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Sent: *Sunday, March 22, 2015 12:42:12 PM
*Subject: *Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

> consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin
> and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet

Typical it works poorly. On moderately heavy days were most boats can
get up towards hull speed and sail deep downwind the JAM boats will be
about as fast as the spin boats but will carry a +12 to +23 advantage.

On very light days if the scoring is time-on-time while everyone is gently
drifting downwind the boats with a +24 will be accumulating too much
adjusted time.

In moderate wind conditions the spin boats will sail to their ratings, but
so will the JAM boats. Might be fair for those days.

>The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and
> finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs.

For PHRF Lake Ontario the ratings are based on windward - leeward courses
with 1 mile legs in about 4 - 18 kts of wind. The ratings were never designed
for long distance races.

I raced last summer in a mixed FS - NFS fleet. Well, hard to call it racing and
I am not sure about the summer part either. Fleet spread was 91, and went
from a Kirby 30 and J/80 to a Sprinta Sport. I managed to see first hand all
the ways mixed fleets and wide PHRF spreads do not work.

At least it does reduce the pile ups at the marks you get in a OD fleet.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1

    From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
    Rick
    Brass via CnC-List
    Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM
    To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
    Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single
    fleet

    OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost
    two hours
    in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages,
    trying to
    come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to
    allow spin
    and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet.

    What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like
    economists and
    politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would
    never reach
    a conclusion.

    I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin
    and a
    non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local
    organizations with
    small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of
    boats in
    non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see,
    the credit
    for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or
    10-15% of
    the boat's PHRF.

    What I'm trying to do is plan for a "C&C Cup" to be run as part of
    a local
    charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on
    the weekend
    of May 15-17. More on that later.

    The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that
    starts and
    finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs.
    I know of
    about 15 C&Cs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing
    the fleet
    would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real
    racers. To
    promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to
    pony up too
    much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own
    boat made by
    Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet.

    So help me here:

    How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings
    between Spin and
    JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how
    equitable are
    the results based on your experience?

    Rick Brass
    Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2
    la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1
    Washington, NC


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