I think this discussion has run into the age-old problem of ‘subjective interpretation’, namely, multiple people all agreeing with a principle (i.e. complexity sucks) but then having _different_ interpretations of where that principle is challenged/upheld. Unfortunately in this industry there are hardly any unambiguous and objective statements because most of what we do is more artistic than engineering (zips up the flame suit now).
And, as ever, pragmatism throws it all out of the window :-) One man’s complexity is another man’s simplicity and so on. > On 24 Nov 2015, at 06:34, Atamert Ölçgen <mu...@muhuk.com> wrote: > > Hi William, > > How is this different than Yo-yo? > (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/PvCc5sSeSRY > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/PvCc5sSeSRY>) > > > Justifying things is generally impossible. > > Actually, no. It is possible, at least when you are dealing with reasonable > people. And when you make claims like "lightweight" or "ultralight", people > will naturally ask "oh, interesting, how so?" > > ----- > > Some functional programming folks are allergic to exceptions. They go out of > their ways to prevent any and all exceptions and they end up unnecessarily > complicating their types for little or no gain. > > It seems to me, you are trying to avoid using protocols like it's a plague. > > > I am tired of doing ongoing refactorings interrupted periodically by > > complete rewrites. Class hierarchies are the worst... > > When your ultralight function based components get out of hand, you will have > a worse time refactoring. With component you only have two functions, your > lightweight design will end up having (* n 2) functions. > > Also, looking at a component's code (it's defrecord form I mean) I can see > what other components it depends on. Your design would bury them inside > functions making it harder to read. > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:57 AM, James Reeves <ja...@booleanknot.com > <mailto:ja...@booleanknot.com>> wrote: > Have you watched Simple Made Easy > <http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy>? > > I mention it because you remark about being tired of refactoring. It's my > opinion that's a symptom of complexity, in the Hickey definition of the term. > > - James > > On 24 November 2015 at 03:31, William la Forge <laforg...@gmail.com > <mailto:laforg...@gmail.com>> wrote: > James, > > Being fun is important but not a justification. We should strive to keep > things fun, but there are plenty of thing worth doing and our resources are > always limited. And if it is not fun, you are not going to do your best work. > > Justifying things is generally impossible. If vanilla clojure meets your > needs, then vanilla clojure it is. If macros solve the problems you have been > dealt in the past, then three cheers for macros. If unifying client and > server addresses your needs, then Om Next may well be a major blessing for > you. > > For me, the winner is avoiding static structures. I am tired of doing ongoing > refactorings interrupted periodically by complete rewrites. Class hierarchies > are the worst--being the largest, they are the least stable. I like small > files that I can put to bed as finished. And self-defining aggregation. > Because these meet my very real needs. I constantly reconceptualize what I am > working on while bringing projects to completion. So having a programming > style which keeps code relevant in the face of such an onslaught is very > helpful and also a genuine delight. > > --b > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 10:08 PM, James Reeves <ja...@booleanknot.com > <mailto:ja...@booleanknot.com>> wrote: > I feel you might be barking up the wrong tree with this approach, as it seems > to complicate things without providing any compelling advantages. > > That said, if it's fun then by all means continue to experiment. Maybe I'm > wrong :) > > - James > > On 24 November 2015 at 02:45, William la Forge <laforg...@gmail.com > <mailto:laforg...@gmail.com>> wrote: > I think you have read too deeply into my thoughts on reserving the first > argument of a function. I haven't actually written any polymorphic functions > relating to this. > > Really, the take off point for me is being able to operate on an object by > implementing it as a map of functions and data. That is to say, making > objects data. Implementing multiple inheritance becomes trivial and without > having to define any classes or any interfaces. And with full support for > circular references without needing to do declares. > > What I like about it is that I get separation of concerns and maximal reuse > without, I suspect, the usual usage coupling. The small maps which define > traits can even participate in the lifecycle of the aggregate, so they start > taking on the characteristics of components. > > My biggest problem with writing code over the decades has been the constant > desire to do rewrites--which are costly and devastating in their impact. That > is why I am fascinated with this approach. > > A second why is that when I have clear separation of concerns and the pieces > of code can be easily tested independently, documentation becomes clearer and > more fun to write. And keeping code fun is a critical driver for open source. > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Timothy Baldridge <tbaldri...@gmail.com > <mailto:tbaldri...@gmail.com>> wrote: > So I feel compelled at this point to ask..."why?". The whole point of > functional programming in Clojure is to de-couple state from data. When you > need polymorphic dispatch on the contents of a map, you have access to multi > methods. Sure this is a fun thought experiment, but I don't understand the > design goals. It's a fairly verbose way to write more complex code to > accomplish what we already have good tools for (protocols/multimethods, etc). > Maybe I'm missing something. > > Timothy > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 7:15 PM, William la Forge <laforg...@gmail.com > <mailto:laforg...@gmail.com>> wrote: > James, when I used the term mixin I was referring to a map that acts like a > trait that gets merged into a larger map. You would define several such > smaller maps that can then be used in various combinations to compose > "objects". The identity of the composite object (this) is the map which holds > the merged contents of the smaller maps. I.E. The entries in the smaller maps > get copied into the larger map. > > When executing functions held by a map, the last parameter is always the map > itself, i.e. the "this". On the other hand, when placing closures into the > map, the self reference is no longer needed as it is implicit in the closure. > But this means that a closure can only reference the contents of the map when > the closure was created, while a function can reference any of the contents > of the map passed as its last argument. > > Why did I make the map reference the last argument for functions held by the > map? So that we can do type polymorphism on the first argument passed to the > function. But we should make an exception to this. To facilitate threading, > functions which return an updated map should take that map as the first > argument. But that is an API change and needs to wait for release 0.6.0. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > <mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com> > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:clojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > <http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en> > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > -- > “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that–lacking > zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs.” > (Robert Firth) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > <mailto:clojure@googlegroups.com> > Note that posts from new members are moderated - 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