Hi William, How is this different than Yo-yo? ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/PvCc5sSeSRY)
> Justifying things is generally impossible. Actually, no. It is possible, at least when you are dealing with reasonable people. And when you make claims like "lightweight" or "ultralight", people will naturally ask "oh, interesting, how so?" ----- Some functional programming folks are allergic to exceptions. They go out of their ways to prevent any and all exceptions and they end up unnecessarily complicating their types for little or no gain. It seems to me, you are trying to avoid using protocols like it's a plague. > I am tired of doing ongoing refactorings interrupted periodically by complete rewrites. Class hierarchies are the worst... When your ultralight function based components get out of hand, you will have a worse time refactoring. With component you only have two functions, your lightweight design will end up having (* n 2) functions. Also, looking at a component's code (it's defrecord form I mean) I can see what other components it depends on. Your design would bury them inside functions making it harder to read. On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:57 AM, James Reeves <ja...@booleanknot.com> wrote: > Have you watched Simple Made Easy > <http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy>? > > I mention it because you remark about being tired of refactoring. It's my > opinion that's a symptom of complexity, in the Hickey definition of the > term. > > - James > > On 24 November 2015 at 03:31, William la Forge <laforg...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> James, >> >> Being fun is important but not a justification. We should strive to keep >> things fun, but there are plenty of thing worth doing and our resources are >> always limited. And if it is not fun, you are not going to do your best >> work. >> >> Justifying things is generally impossible. If vanilla clojure meets your >> needs, then vanilla clojure it is. If macros solve the problems you have >> been dealt in the past, then three cheers for macros. If unifying client >> and server addresses your needs, then Om Next may well be a major blessing >> for you. >> >> For me, the winner is avoiding static structures. I am tired of doing >> ongoing refactorings interrupted periodically by complete rewrites. Class >> hierarchies are the worst--being the largest, they are the least stable. I >> like small files that I can put to bed as finished. And self-defining >> aggregation. Because these meet my very real needs. I constantly >> reconceptualize what I am working on while bringing projects to completion. >> So having a programming style which keeps code relevant in the face of such >> an onslaught is very helpful and also a genuine delight. >> >> --b >> >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 10:08 PM, James Reeves <ja...@booleanknot.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I feel you might be barking up the wrong tree with this approach, as it >>> seems to complicate things without providing any compelling advantages. >>> >>> That said, if it's fun then by all means continue to experiment. Maybe >>> I'm wrong :) >>> >>> - James >>> >>> On 24 November 2015 at 02:45, William la Forge <laforg...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think you have read too deeply into my thoughts on reserving the >>>> first argument of a function. I haven't actually written any polymorphic >>>> functions relating to this. >>>> >>>> Really, the take off point for me is being able to operate on an object >>>> by implementing it as a map of functions and data. That is to say, making >>>> objects data. Implementing multiple inheritance becomes trivial and without >>>> having to define any classes or any interfaces. And with full support for >>>> circular references without needing to do declares. >>>> >>>> What I like about it is that I get separation of concerns and maximal >>>> reuse without, I suspect, the usual usage coupling. The small maps which >>>> define traits can even participate in the lifecycle of the aggregate, so >>>> they start taking on the characteristics of components. >>>> >>>> My biggest problem with writing code over the decades has been the >>>> constant desire to do rewrites--which are costly and devastating in their >>>> impact. That is *why *I am fascinated with this approach. >>>> >>>> A second *why *is that when I have clear separation of concerns and >>>> the pieces of code can be easily tested independently, documentation >>>> becomes clearer and more fun to write. And keeping code fun is a critical >>>> driver for open source. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Timothy Baldridge < >>>> tbaldri...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> So I feel compelled at this point to ask..."why?". The whole point of >>>>> functional programming in Clojure is to de-couple state from data. When >>>>> you >>>>> need polymorphic dispatch on the contents of a map, you have access to >>>>> multi methods. Sure this is a fun thought experiment, but I don't >>>>> understand the design goals. It's a fairly verbose way to write more >>>>> complex code to accomplish what we already have good tools for >>>>> (protocols/multimethods, etc). Maybe I'm missing something. >>>>> >>>>> Timothy >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 7:15 PM, William la Forge <laforg...@gmail.com >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> James, when I used the term mixin I was referring to a map that acts >>>>>> like a trait that gets merged into a larger map. You would define several >>>>>> such smaller maps that can then be used in various combinations to >>>>>> compose >>>>>> "objects". The identity of the composite object (this) is the map which >>>>>> holds the merged contents of the smaller maps. I.E. The entries in the >>>>>> smaller maps get copied into the larger map. >>>>>> >>>>>> When executing functions held by a map, the last parameter is always >>>>>> the map itself, i.e. the "this". On the other hand, when placing closures >>>>>> into the map, the self reference is no longer needed as it is implicit in >>>>>> the closure. But this means that a closure can only reference the >>>>>> contents >>>>>> of the map when the closure was created, while a function can reference >>>>>> any >>>>>> of the contents of the map passed as its last argument. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why did I make the map reference the last argument for functions held >>>>>> by the map? So that we can do type polymorphism on the first argument >>>>>> passed to the function. But we should make an exception to this. To >>>>>> facilitate threading, functions which return an updated map should take >>>>>> that map as the first argument. But that is an API change and needs to >>>>>> wait >>>>>> for release 0.6.0. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>>>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient >>>>>> with your first post. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was >>>>> that–lacking zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of >>>>> their C programs.” >>>>> (Robert Firth) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient >>>>> with your first post. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>>>> Google Groups "Clojure" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/7Q7QvlSUGL4/unsubscribe. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>>> your first post. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/7Q7QvlSUGL4/unsubscribe. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "Clojure" group. >> To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com >> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >> your first post. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Clojure" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Kind Regards, Atamert Ölçgen ◻◼◻ ◻◻◼ ◼◼◼ www.muhuk.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
