Jay (and others), First of all, you must understand where test2 came from. It started as a bunch of people** in #clojure discussing what we'd change about clojure.test if we could.
We realized we can't change clojure.test because (1) this would break backwards compatibility, and (2) clojure.test is really slow-moving since it lives inside Clojure. So the idea was to create a successor to clojure.test with the changes we wanted, and which didn't live inside Clojure. Hence the name test2. These very smart people were brainstorming for a few hours, and came up with some really good ideas. I started organizing their thoughts in a wiki, and was trying to guide the discussion with some provoking questions. Two high-level concepts kept recurring in the discussion. First, it should be really simple, building on Clojure concepts, and not using any special magic. The second one naturally follows from this: if it's just plain old no-magic Clojure, you can easily build on top of it. In other words, you get extensibility for free. This is when we realized that, if done right, test2 could be flexible enough where Midje/Speclj/Expectations could be re-written as extensions to test2. Or you could just use vanilla test2 similarly to clojure.test. Or you can mix and match extensions. Let me briefly say that I don't consider test2 to be my project. All I did was turn their ideas into a SPEC<https://github.com/evanescence/test2/blob/master/SPEC.md>and some code. I knew that everyone involved was too busy to do it, even though they wanted it to exist. So I jumped in and did my small part. You're suggesting we should have started with your lib and proposed changes. Let's generalize this for a second and say "with anyone else's lib" since there are other test-lib authors who might say the same thing. First of all, whose lib should we start with? Picking any existing one gives an unfair bias toward that lib's feature-set. Second of all, when a feature-set changes this drastically, it's usually clearer to see best solution from a blank slate. Third of all, this is intended to be a community-controlled lib, but each existing lib already has an owner in full control. But you're right. I shouldn't have just assumed the SPEC is ready and started calling for extensions. Sure, the initial conversation in IRC gave us a really solid starting-point, but let's admit that the SPEC isn't ready yet and needs work. I apologize for being so naive. I think we all agree that it's extremely important to discuss the SPEC as a community. In fact, since this is a pre-ANN, let's consider this thread the perfect place for such a discussion. For example, in its current incarnation, having once-fixtures a la clojure.test requires a custom runner, but it should really be part of a Definer's role. And there's some confusion as to whether Runners should give Reporters a lazy sequence of test-results or not, which would mean not actually running each test until the Reporter needs them to be run. Or, maybe the 4 roles defined in the SPEC are inadequate in the first place and need to be changed up somewhat. ** I'm not going to drop names in case they don't want to be part of this discussion, but maybe they'll come in here and affirm that what I'm saying isn't self-serving BS, but that it's all true and an accurate representation of the events. -Steven On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Jay Fields <j...@jayfields.com> wrote: > I'd like to mention that expectations* has 0 open pull requests, 0 open > issues, and is very actively maintained**. Steven, I don't want to > discourage you from creating your own testing framework, I think everyone > should, it's a very educational experience. > > I just wanted to be clear that no one has ever asked me for any help > extending expectations, and anyone who chooses to use expectations should > feel free to contact me with any suggestions. > > * https://github.com/jaycfields/expectations > ** https://github.com/jaycfields/expectations/commits/master > > > On Saturday, June 8, 2013 11:14:42 AM UTC-4, Steven Degutis wrote: >> >> Test2 is a new testing lib for Clojure, where the power is its >> simplicity, extensibility, and a >> SPEC<https://github.com/evanescence/test2/blob/master/SPEC.md> much >> like Ring's. >> >> Github: >> https://github.com/**evanescence/test2<https://github.com/evanescence/test2> >> >> Some background: It came out of >> discussions<https://github.com/evanescence/test2/wiki/Communal-Brainstorming> >> with >> the smart folks in #clojure, who were frustrated with the inflexibility of >> existing libs, and intended this to be the spiritual successor to >> clojure.test. We wanted something that was still simple like clojure.test, >> but could be extended externally much more easily in case you wanted >> features found in clojure.test, Midje, Speclj, or Expectations, or whatever >> else. >> >> This is a pre-ANN because it's more of a call for extensions. I've >> written one last night, >> test2-autorunner<https://github.com/evanescence/test2-autorunner>, >> which took about an hour. This should give some idea of how easy it is and >> how well-designed the SPEC was by the smart folks of #clojure. There are >> some ideas at the bottom of the wiki, but of course any extensions are >> encouraged. >> >> -Steven >> > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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