If you just think about the impacts of removing the top most parens and how you could hide this to tools like macros that may fiddle with your sexps you can only conclude that such a change is unlikely to happen. Plus changes to the compiler, IDEs, etc ...
Phthon has the following delimiters: http://docs.python.org/release/2.5.2/ref/delimiters.html Clojure uses (), {}, #{}, [], quote, (.), back-quote, %, #, #', #"", #(), \, ;, @, ^, ~, ~@ and _. Maybe missing a couple here but not much time tonight to browse doc. Aside from the parens, the interop call and the reader macro specific literals, most of them are syntactic sugar. You can write (hash-map ...) instead of {} and so forth. You can write closures using (fn [a b] ...), no need to use #() and %n to refer to args. Which brings me to my point that Clojure has no more essential delimiters than python, maybe less (no time tonight to count). Except maybe if you write macros on a regular basis. This obsession about parenthesis misses the objective, to have less noise in the syntax of the language. Why twist Clojure if people are really searching for a better alternative to the language they currently use ? What about the ones that want a real improvement over their current situation ? Why offer them a dual syntax with all the potential mess that such an approach offers ? How matching an algol like syntax makes Clojure more "acceptable" ? If people just fly away because they heard that Clojure has too many parenthesis before seriously trying it, well, excuse my comment, it's a lame excuse. They will probably prefer to stick to what they have at hand, the parenthesis being the less scary feature of Clojure :) Luc P. > The syntax does complect in one case. > When you really do want a list as > opposed to a function call. hence quote > and (list ...) > > On Tuesday, 5 February 2013 07:06:37 UTC+11, tbc++ wrote: > > > > Parens actually don't complect, they have a very very clear meaning. They > > > > organize functions and arguments. Let's take one line from your example: > > > > filter smaller xs > > > > So....is that the python equivalent to which of these? > > > > filter(smaller(xs)) > > filter(smaller, xs) > > filter(smaller(), xs()) > > filter(smaller(xs())) > > > > I would also assert that Python complects formatting and semantic meaning > > > > of the code. I'm quite proficient at Python and even I hate that fact > > > > Timothy > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Sergey Didenko > > <sergey....@gmail.com<javascript:> > > > wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> For us as Clojure community it is easy to see how Clojure benefits > >> from being a Lisp. Homoiconity, extreme conciseness, esoteric look and > >> feel, etc. > >> > >> However it is hard to see from the inside how Clojure as ecosystem > >> (probably) suffer from being a Lisp. Please don't throw rotten eggs at > >> me, I mean only the part of Lisp that is ... parentheses. > >> > >> I remember a number of people that mention parentheses as obstacles to > >> the wider Clojure adoption, in the Clojure space - in the Clojure > >> related discussions, even on this mailing list IIRC. > >> > >> But the number of people thinking this way outside the Clojure groups > >> is even bigger! We probably don't notice it because got immune to this > >> famous argument "it has too many parentheses" early when diving into > >> Clojure. > >> > >> I suggest there are a big number of people that could gain interest in > >> clojure if we provide them with parentheses-lite Clojure syntax. For > >> example we can steal Python way of intending blocks. > >> > >> For example the following quicksort implementation > >> > >> (defn qsort [[pivot & xs]] > >> (when pivot > >> (let [smaller #(< % pivot)] > >> (lazy-cat (qsort (filter smaller xs)) > >> [pivot] > >> (qsort (remove smaller xs)))))) > >> > >> could be written as > >> > >> (set! python-style-op-op true) > >> > >> defn qsort [[pivot & xs]] > >> when pivot > >> let [smaller #(< % pivot)] > >> lazy-cat > >> qsort > >> filter smaller xs > >> [pivot] > >> qsort > >> remove smaller xs > >> > >> What do you think? > >> > >> Isn't is less complex? > >> > >> > >> P.S. Ok, I must confess, the mention of the C-Word in the last > >> sentence was just a desperate way to get Rich's attention. > >> > >> P.P.S. Actually I would also love to see Clojure community making > >> video clip "Clojure - Python Style" as a remix for "G... Style", but > >> this idea is probably way ahead of its time. > >> > >> > >> Regards, Sergey. > >> > >> -- > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "Clojure" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > >> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > > >> >> your first post. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > >> --- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >> > >> "Clojure" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > >> > >> email to clojure+u...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > “One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was > > that–lacking > > zero–they had no way to indicate successful termination of > > their C > > programs.” > > (Robert Firth) > > > > -- > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- Softaddicts<lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> sent by ibisMail from my ipad! -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
