From: "J. van Baardwijk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Killer Bs Discussion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: France's influence Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:07:50 +0100
At 05:15 18-03-03 +0000, John Giorgis wrote:
> Now, let's see. Someone who has been living in The Netherlands for > almost 36 years says that the country is not a republic. There are no > government documents that say that the country is still a republic (it > ceased to be a republic a long time ago).
Perhaps in Dutch, Jeroen van Baardwijk is given more authority than a dictionary.... I can assure you, however, that in English this is definitely not the case.
It's not my authority. Nobody is taught in school that The Netherlands is a republic, there aren't any government documents that say The Netherlands is a republic, the Constitution doesn't mention it, and we have a group here called (translated) "The Republican Society" who would like nothing better than to get rid of the monarchy and turn the country into a republic -- which indicates that the country isn't a republic, otherwise there would be no reason for them to want to turn the country into a republic.
All that carries a lot more weight than *one* definition in a dictionary, especially since other definitions say exactly the opposite of that one definition.
Not the opposite. They complement that definition.
Definition #2 Jeroen.
Dan has mentioned that the first definition indicates that a republic does not have a monarch. Jon has posted a definition of republic that says: "a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president". On what basis have you decided that these definitions do not apply to The Netherlands -- especially given the fact that we have a monarch and not a president? So far, it looks like you only choose to ignore these definitions because they contradict your claim that The Netherlands is a republic.
> The Constitution does not even *mention* the word "republiek" (which > it would if it were).
I see no reason why it would.
The Netherlands is a Kingdom, and this is mentioned in the Constitution. As it is mentioned, it's reasonable to expect that the Constitution would also mention it if the country were a republic.
I also want to point something out, and that is that the CIA Factbook does list the Netherlands' gov't as a Constitutional Monarchy. And, as we can see from the following description, the executive branch is appointed by the monarch or hereditary, not elected by the people. The legislative branch, however, is elected by the people.
From: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/nl.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Executive branch:
chief of state: Queen BEATRIX (since 30 April 1980); Heir Apparent WILLEM-ALEXANDER (born 27 April 1967), son of the monarch
head of government: Prime Minister Jan Peter BALKENENDE (since 22 July 2002) and Vice Prime Ministers Johan REMKES (since NA 2002) and Roelf DE BOER (since NA 2002)
cabinet: Council of Ministers appointed by the monarch
elections: none; the monarchy is hereditary; following Second Chamber elections, the leader of the majority party or leader of a majority coalition is usually appointed prime minister by the monarch; vice prime ministers appointed by the monarch
note: there is also a Council of State composed of the monarch, heir apparent, and councilors that provides consultations to the prime minister on legislative and administrative policy
Legislative branch:
bicameral States General or Staten Generaal consists of the First Chamber or Eerste Kamer (75 seats; members indirectly elected by the country's 12 provincial councils for four-year terms) and the Second Chamber or Tweede Kamer (150 seats; members directly elected by popular vote to serve four-year terms)
elections: First Chamber - last held 25 May 1999 (next to be held 15 May 2003); Second Chamber - last held 22 January 2003 (next to be held NA January 2007)
election results: First Chamber - percent of vote by party - NA%; seats by party - CDA 20, VVD 19, PvdA 15, D66 4, other 17; Second Chamber - percent of vote by party - CDA 28.6%, PvdA 27.3%, VVD 12.9%, Socialist Party 6.3%, List Pim Fortuyn 5.7%, Green Party 5.1%, D66 4.1%; seats by party - CDA 44, PvdA 42, VVD 28, Socialist Party 9, List Pim Fortuyn 8, Green Party 8, D66 6, other 5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John, how does an executive branch that's appointed by a hereditary monarch and not elected by the people they represent qualify as a republic? I may be a few years out of government and constitutional law, but I do believe that the Netherlands would not be considered a republic by those criteria, even with an elected legislative branch.
Anyhow, now that Jeroen's insistence to never be proven wrong has now engulfed the rest of the List
Most members have not contributed to this discussion, so your statement is a major exaggeration. And I do not "insist to never be proven wrong"; if someone can prove me wrong than s/he is more than welcome to do so. However, you have sofar failed to prove me wrong -- you simply choose to ignore that what contradicts your claim.
You _both_ have an annoying and imo, rather obnoxious tendency to qualify your statements in terms of 'speaking for the rest of the list'. Y'all don't speak for us. We all do just fine speaking for ourselves, thank you. :) (smiley meant to indicate humor, but not that I'm kidding.)
Thus, despite our colloquial speech, the US, the UK, and the Netherlands are republics, not
democracies.
We are not a republic, and we won't become one unless the US invades The Netherlands and turns it into the 51st state of the US (or the 52nd or 53rd, depending on when Puerto Rico and the UK get assimilated by the US).
SOMEone has an overinflated sense of self-importance, dontcha. ;-) *grin* Jon
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