Doh! I should have waited two more minutes before hitting send.
John said everything I said in much more concise form. ^_^;; Matt On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 2:32 PM John Curran <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Aug 29, 2025, at 4:59 PM, Shawn Bakhtiar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > …. > > As others have mentioned. ARIN is not LE (Law Enforcement), however, > this does not mean it can’t (and in fact it should) set policy. Once the > policy is established, then we can use it as a basis for enforcement, this > could come in the form of a civil law suite, etc... > > Shawn - > > Alas, that is not the case - ARIN policy is used for operation of the > number resource registry and does not equate to “public law”; i.e. you > can’t engage law enforcement to complain about a violation of ARIN policy. > > > I can't go to courts and say hold someone to a standard that has not > been set. I need the policy, in order to establish the bad behavior. > > > > The difference in having this policy or not, is the difference on > whether I can pursue damages. Without it, the courts will simply say, they > have no obligation. With it the court can hold them to the obligation. > > A lot of different concepts are being conflated here - in order to pursue > damages against a party, you’d need to show that they had some obligation > to your organization – this isn’t even the case with ARIN policy, at best, > resource holders have an obligation to _ARIN_ through their RSA to adhere > to ARIN policy, and that’s not something that your organization can seek > recourse for violation of… ARIN can, and would do so as specified by > policy. > > > ARIN would never even be involved, netizens would simply litigate > through the civil courts. > > As noted above, that is not the case. If you want enforcement in the > court system, then you need actual public law an applicable jurisdiction. > > > Again, I don't want to conflate enforcement with policy. All I'm asking > for here is a policy to be set (updated). I'm not asking ARIN to enforce > it. The community will do it through the normal legal and enforcement > channels. But we can't do that, when there is no policy to point to. > > Setting a policy in this area is fine (if the community wishes such), and > there’s a range of things that ARIN can do with respect to enforcement that > are short of resource revocation – if the community clearly specifies such > actions. > > For example, it’s possible to publicly mark the registry records of those > networks with abuse contacts found to be non-responsive (however > “non-responsive" gets defined). It’s also possible to publish list of > those networks which have nonresponsive abuse contacts, and therefore > enable those who think that's a problem to filter accordingly. ARIN can > also contact organizations – and would most certainly do so in the process > of any material enforcement action (and hence there are costs involved to > be considered with any policy and enforcement action.) > > However, to be clear - ARIN policy won’t provide you a cause of action to > seek recourse in the courts (not unless the policy is made into public law > or you have inserted compliance requirements in your contracts with other > transit/peering providers and those happen to be the violators.) > > Thanks, > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >
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