I call for judgement on the following statement. "Blob does not have to forfeit under rule 345."
Reasoning: Rule 345 says "If a player proposes a rule change that is not adopted..." I made proposal 346 BEFORE this rule came into effect. Rule 108 forbids retroactive application. Blob On 27/06/2013, at 10:38 PM, Fool wrote: > Good day Agorans, > > A correction from last report brought to my attention by Yally. It does > involve the disputed interpretation of the order of events when the voting on > multiple proposals closes "simultaneously". I am going with the > interpretation that they pass sequentially in order I numbered them (which is > also the order they were proposed). This means that rule 305 does not forbid > rule 332 from assigning points for votes on proposals 333-340. > > Rule 332 awards three types of points, which I'll label: > (a) 10 points for proposing something that passed. I'd already awarded these. > (b) 5 points for voting against a proposal which passed. Steve and Chuck get > 5 for prop 333; Walker, omd, and Yally get 5 for prop 340. > (c) 5 points for voting on any prop which passes or fails, provided you > didn't get points by this clause in the last 24 hours. Walker, omd, Yally, > ehird, Chuck, Steve, FSX, Blob, Murphy, Roujo get 5. > > (I'd already awarded the 10 points for proposing something that passes, 305 > didn't forbid that.) > > ---- > > Alright, onward. Proposals 342-343 closed a few hours ago, and 344-347 just > closed. > > Proposal 342 (Chuck) passes 6:2 with Michael, Blob, Chuck, ehird, Goethe, and > Steve FOR; Walker and Yally AGAINST. This amends rule 326 (the ending > conditions). Chuck gets 10 points by 332(a), Walker and Yally 5 by 332(b), > Michael and Goethe 5 by 332(c) (the rest already got their 332(c) points). > > Proposal 343 (Chuck) passes 6:2 with Michael, Blob, Chuck, ehird, Goethe, and > Steve FOR; Walker and Yally AGAINST. This amends rule 342. Chuck gets 10 > points by 332(a), Walker and Yally 5 by 332(b). Everybody's already got their > 332(c) points. > > Proposal 344 (Yally) passes 5:3 with ehird, Steve, Michael, Yally, and Chuck > FOR; Walker, Goethe, and omd AGAINST. This amends rule 343. It basically > restores this poor rule to the original winning condition (most points), and > adds a clause to resume the game next year. Yally gets 10 points by 332(a), > Walker, Goethe, and omd get 5 by 332(b). ehird, Steve, Yally, Chuck, Walker, > and omd get 5 by 332(c) since the last time they got points was 24 hours ago. > > Proposal 345 (Blob) passes 6:5 with Blob, scshunt, Goethe, Steve, ehird, and > Chuck FOR; Yally, Walker, Michael, FSX, and omd AGAINST. This enacts a new > rule saying that whenever a proposal fails, the proposer forfeits. Blob gets > 10 points by 332(a). Yally, Walker, Michael, FSX, omd get 5 by 332(b). Blob, > FSX, and scshunt get 5 by 332(c). > > And the next proposal is 346, by Blob.... > > Now, did anyone guess that it would fail? Well, put on a big silly hat and > call yourself Carnac the Magnificent! > > It fails 4:4, with Blob, Steve, Goethe, and Chuck FOR; Walker, ehird, > Michael, and omd AGAINST. Blob forfeits. > > Finally, proposal 347 (Chuck) passes 7:2 with Walker, Blob, ehird, Steve, > Goethe, FSX, and Chuck FOR; Yally and omd AGAINST. This amends 332. Now > there's just 10 points for proposing a proposal that passes. Chuck gets 10 > points. > > The twelve Voters, one ex-Voter, and their scores are: > omd, 123 points > FSX, 5 points > Walker, 137 points > Chuck, 115 points > ehird, 40 points > Yally, 40 points > Michael, 10 points > scshunt, 11 points > Roujo, 5 points > Murphy, 5 points > Goethe, 10 points > Steve, 27 points > Blob, 20 points [forfeited] > > Then there's me, I am Speaker, I have -10 points. > > There is a pending CFJ called by Goethe on what "forfeiture" means, assigned > to omd. I raised a CFJ on Roujo's votes which were conditional on the secret > votes of others. Steve ruled these votes were invalid. > > Most importantly, Chuck called two CFJs on the wording of rule 331, which may > give him the win by paradox. These are pending, assigned to Walker and > Michael. > > If I receive any proposals promptly, I will distribute. Otherwise the next > and final distribution is in 24 hours, and the game ends 24 hours after that. > Unless the rules change, or Chuck wins in the meantime. > > The current ruleset is below. > > Cheers, > Dan Mehkeri > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 101 (Immutable) > > All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, > in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the > Initial Set are in effect at the beginning of the first game. > > The Initial Set consists of rules 101-116 (immutable) and > 201-219 (mutable). > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 101, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 102 (Immutable) > > Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the > 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted > (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may > be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules > in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 102, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 103 (Immutable) > > At any time, each player shall be either a Voter or the Speaker; > no player may simultaneously be a Voter and a Speaker. At any > time there shall be exactly one Speaker. The term "player" in the rules > shall specifically include both the Voters and the Speaker. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 103, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 104 (Immutable) > > The Speaker for the Vigintennial game shall be Daniel Méhkeri. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 104, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 105 (Immutable) > > A rule change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, > or amendment of a mutable rule; or (2) the transmutation > of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa. > > (Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new > rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, > may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are > mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be > transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.) > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 105, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 106 (Immutable) > > All rule changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. > They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number > of votes and quorum is achieved. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 106, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 107 (Immutable) > > Any proposed rule change must be posted to the mailing list > designated by the Speaker for this purpose. If adopted, it must > guide play in the form in which it was voted on. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 107, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 108 (Immutable) > > No rule change may take effect earlier than the moment of the > completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording > explicitly states otherwise. No rule change may have retroactive > application. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 108, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 109 (Immutable) > > The Speaker shall give each proposed rule change a number for > reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule change > proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive > integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted. > > If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the > proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it > receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 109, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 111 (Immutable) > > In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the > immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be > entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to > transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable > rule. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 111, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 113 (Immutable) > > A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than > continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than > losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 113, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 115 (Immutable) > > Rule changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply > rule changes are as permissible as other rule changes. Even > rule changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. > No rule change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of > the self-reference or self-application of a rule. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 115, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 116 (Immutable) > > Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted > and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, > which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or > implicitly permits it. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 116, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 202 (Mutable) > > All players begin with 0 points. Points may not be gained, lost, or > traded except as explicitly stated in the rules. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 202, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [The following rule is REPEALED: > Rule 203 > > The winner is the first Voter to achieve 100 (positive) points. > If more than one Voter achieves this condition simultaneously, all > such Voters win. > When a game ends in this manner: > -If there is only one winner, that Voter becomes the Speaker, and > the old Speaker becomes a Voter > -If there is more than one winner, the Speaker randomly selects > one of the winners, who becomes the new Speaker, and the old > Speaker becomes a Voter. > -All players' scores are reset to 0. > -A new game is begun. All rules and proposed rule changes retain > the status they had at the end of the old game. > ] > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 203, Jun. 30 1993 > Repealed for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 204 (Mutable) > > A proposal shall be made by posting it to the mailing list. Only > Voters may make proposals. The Speaker shall assign the proposal a > number within 24 hours of its posting. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 204, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 207 (Mutable) > > Voters may vote either for or against any proposal within its > prescribed voting period. In order to be legally cast, the vote > must be received by the Speaker by the end of the prescribed voting > period. The Speaker may not reveal any votes until the end of the > prescribed voting period. Any Voter who does not legally vote within > the prescribed voting period shall be deemed to have abstained. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 207, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 208 (Mutable) > > At the end of the prescribed voting period on a proposal, the > Speaker shall reveal all votes legally cast on that proposal. If > the Speaker's consent may be required for a proposal to be adopted, > then the Speaker should indicate at that time whether or not e gives > eir consent. If the Speaker does not explicitly indicate that e > refuses to consent to the proposal, it shall be assumed that e > consents. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 208, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 209 (Mutable) > > The required votes for a proposal to be adopted is as follows: > For a proposal which would directly alter the actions which are > required of and/or forbidden to the Speaker: > a) a simple majority of all votes legally cast, if the Speaker > consents; > b) a 2/3 majority of all votes legally cast, if the Speaker does not > consent; > > For all other proposals, a simple majority of votes legally cast. > This rule defers to rules which set the required number of votes > for proposals which propose to transmute a rule. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 209, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 210 (Mutable) > > An adopted rule change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of > the vote that adopted it. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 210, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 212 (Mutable) > > If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if > two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule > with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence. > If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself > that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence > over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall > supersede the numerical method for determining precedence. > If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or > defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 212, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 213 (Mutable) > > If players disagree about the legality of a move or the > interpretation or application of a rule, then a player may invoke > judgement by posting a statement for judgement to the mailing list. > Disagreement, for the purposes of this rule, may be created by the > insistence of any player. When judgement is invoked, the Speaker > must, within 24 hours, select a Judge as described in the Rules. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 213, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 215 (Mutable) > > After the Speaker has announced the identity of the Judge, the Judge > has 24 hours in which to deliver a legal judgement. If the Judge > fails to deliver a judgement within this time, e is penalized 10 > points and a new Judge is selected. > A judgement is delivered by posting that judgement to the mailing > list. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 215, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 216 (Mutable) > > A legal judgement is either TRUE, FALSE, or UNDECIDED. The > judgement may be accompanied by reasons and arguments, but such > reasons and arguments form no part of the judgement itself. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 216, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 217 (Mutable) > > All judgements must be in accordance with the rules; however, if > the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the statement > to be judged, then the Judge shall consider game custom and the > spirit of the game before applying other standards. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 217, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 218 (Mutable) > > In addition to duties which may be listed elsewhere in the rules, > the Speaker shall have the following duties: > -register new players > -maintain a list of all players and their current scores, and > make such a list available to all players > -maintain a complete list of the current rules, and make such a > list available to all players > -make a random determination whenever such determination is > required by the rules. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 218, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 219 (Mutable) > > If a player believes that the rules are such that further play is > impossible, or that the legality of a move cannot be determined with > finality, or that a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the > player may invoke judgement on a statement to that effect. If the > statement is judged TRUE, then the player who invoked judgement > shall be declared the winner of that game, and the game ends, with > no provision for starting another game. > > This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the > winner of the game. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 219, Jun. 30 1993 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [The following rule is REPEALED: > Rule 304 > > Upon the enactment of this rule, each player who voted for it shall > receive 30 points, and each player who voted against shall lose the 10 > points they gained for voting against; then this rule is immediately > repealed. > ] > > History: > Enacted by Proposal 304 (omd), Jun. 19 2013 > Repealed itself, Jun. 19 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 305 (Mutable) > > No rule may award or penalize players based on their votes on proposals > whose voting period ended before or at the same time as the time at which > the current form of said rule took effect. > > History: > Enacted by Proposal 305 (Chuck), Jun. 20 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 306 (Mutable) > > A player may transfer points to another player by posting to that > effect on the mailing list. > > History: > Enacted by Proposal 306 (omd), Jun. 21 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 309 (Mutable) > > Initially, each Voter has exactly one vote on each proposal. During > the voting period on a proposal, a player with more than 50 points > may cast an additional vote on that proposal by making a statement > to that effect on the mailing list; this destroys 50 of the player's > points. > > The Speaker may not vote. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 206, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended by Proposal 309 (Walker), Jun. 21 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 321 (Mutable) > > Quorum for a proposal is defined to be 20% of Voters at the > beginning of the prescribed voting period for that proposal > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 201, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended by Proposal 321 (Walker), Jun 23. 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [The following rule is REPEALED: > Rule 323 > > If, upon the enactment of this Rule, the Rules initially numbered > 106, 107 and 109 are mutable, 50 of Walker's points are destroyed. > If possible, two seconds after this Rule is enacted, it repeals > itself. > ] > > History: > Enacted by Proposal 323 (Walker), Jun. 23 2013 > Repealed itself, Jun. 23 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 324 (Mutable) > > Rule changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules > may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among votes > legally cast. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be > stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 110, Jun. 30 1993 > Transmuted by Proposal 324, Jun. 23 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 327 (Mutable) > > There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of > rule changes must never become completely impermissible. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 114, Jun. 30 1993 > Transmuted by Proposal 310 (Walker), Jun. 22 2013 > Amended by Proposal 327 (Walker), Jun. 24 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 331 (Mutable) > > The Speaker shall choose Judges randomly from the set of qualified > players. The players qualified to judge a statement are the Speaker > and those Voters who voted on the rule change whose voting period most > recently ended, except for the player who invoked judgement, and the > player (if any) most recently selected as the statement's Judge. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 214, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended by Proposal 331 (omd), Jun. 26 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 333 (Mutable) > > The Speaker shall make one proposal distribution per 24 hours, > numbering and publishing the text of each proposal submitted since the > last distribution. This starts each such proposal's prescribed voting > period, which lasts 24 hours. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 205, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > Amended by Proposal 333 (omd), Jun. 26 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 340 (Mutable) > > Within 24 hours of this Rule being enacted, the Speaker shall publish > the names and email addresses of all registered players of Agora XX. > > History: > Enacted by Proposal 340 (Steve), Jun. 26 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 344 (Mutable) > > Each year on June 30th at 00:04:30 UTC +1200 , the game shall end, > and the Voter with the most points shall win. In case of a tie, all > such Voters shall win simultaneously. At this time, no game actions > may be taken and all timers shall pause. Each year on June 1st at > 00:00 UTC the game shall resume and each player shall have eir points > set to 0. At this time game actions may again be taken and all timers > shall resume. > > History: > Initial Immutable Rule 112, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended for Vigintennial by decree, Jun. 17 2013 > Transmuted by Proposal 311 (omd), Jun. 23 2013 > Amended by Proposal 326 (Chuck), Jun. 24 2013 > Amended by Proposal 342 (Chuck), Jun. 26 2013 > Amended by Proposal 343 (Chuck), Jun. 26 2013 > Amended by Proposal 344 (Yally), Jun. 27 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 345 (Mutable) > > > If a player proposes a rule change which is not adopted at the end > of its voting period, that player must immediately forfeit the > game. > > History: > Enacted by Proposal 345 (Blob), Jun. 27 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rule 347 (Mutable) > > > Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive 10 points. > > History: > Initial Mutable Rule 211, Jun. 30 1993 > Amended by Proposal 301 (Chuck), Jun. 19 2013 > Amended by Proposal 302 (Walker), Jun. 19 2013 > Amended by Proposal 332 (omd), Jun. 26 2013 > Amended by Proposal 347 (Chuck), Jun. 27 2013 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >
