Have you looked at CnHeat?
We're about to do some testing with it here. They mentioned USGS LIDAR
as one of the data sources. Presumably that's blended with other
imaging somehow.
On 12/5/2019 4:02 PM, Cameron Crum wrote:
LIDAR is not clutter specific, it just can't penetrate clutter (it's
light) so clutter ends up looking like terrain. The benefit is that
you get an elevation, the drawback is that you don't know the type of
clutter or how high it is above the terrain. I suppose if you compare
the lidar data against a terrain only DEM, you could extract the
clutter height. Here is the thing... some propagation does penetrate
vegetation to some degree, so if you are talking about frequencies
that do, then lidar is not necessarily a good thing to use as
everything ends up looking like an obstruction. You also need a model
that can actually account for clutter (vegetation) density when
talking about how much it will affect the signal. Obviously leaf types
and things like that can have other effects, but I'm unaware of any
model that goes to that depth. While some account for clutter heights
to use diffraction losses and some lump-sum type losses for a given
clutter category, none of the models that are in use in the wisp
industry account for clutter density and there are only a few in
existence that do.
You can get high res clutter data (types) from thermal satellite
imaging from one of the geospatial data companies like Terrapin
Geographic, or SPOT. It is surprisingly accurate and is what real prop
tools like Planet use. The downside is no elevations, so you still
have user input for that. Unless you are willing to shell out big
bucks, don't bother looking. We are talking about 10's of thousands
for a modestly sized area. The cellcos can afford it.
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:41 AM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Interesting. And unfortunately I don't know any more about LIDAR
than a Google Search does.
On 12/5/2019 11:27 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
Just the SAS administrators will be competitive product. So
garbage in garbage out will really apply. Basic SAS functionality
is uniform, but feature sets will differ. More accurate
propagation modeling every night will be something we benefit
from and Im thinking that will be one of the things they compete
against each other with. They didnt say that specifically, but
the second iteration of SAS will be more bigger, potentially even
bigly in its scope. I really thought it was all going to be
modeled after cellco, with a bend toward cellcos overtaking CBRS
with shady handshakes and involuntary roaming agreements, but it
appears winnforum isnt just government lackeys, the people
involved have actually put gear in the air or at least listen to
those that have. I think cantgetright may have been a co-chair of
a committee somewhere
Where would a guy who doesnt know what LIDAR is go to find out
more about that clutter data?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:12 AM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I think the USGS is making 3D clutter maps with LIDAR.
CnHeat is supposed to use that wherever it's available.
I haven't heard how that relates to the SAS though. Is this
something you learned from the "450 Lady"? Care to share?
On 12/5/2019 10:25 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
first question is if a guy collects accurate clutter data,
can he use it in any of the propagation tools we use?
second, and this is where you braniacs come in, what
equipment would it take on a drone to collect this data?
IIRC drone limit without FAA is something like 300 feet.
would that even be tall enough to sweep a wide enough path
that it wouldnt take 300 battery charges to do a square mile?
I envision a course plotted drone trip that will fly over
with a pilot car trailing to maintain the required operator LOS.
If you think about how many miles youve put on verifying
link paths over the years, its not really a prohibitive thing.
CBRS and SAS is whats driving this query, but general
propagation anomalies creates quite a pickle that better
accuracy/resolution clutter accuracy would alleviate.
Please tell me there is already a consortium thats built out
a clutter standard with a clutter submission mechanism, that
would completely tickle me silly.
I also dont know the impact to the propagation back ends as
you increase the resolution of the data. Im assuming the SAS
administrators are running something a little beefier than
Radio Mobile.
I could see this being a lucrative niche market, if there
were a way around the drone operator licensing requirements
(though that cost is pretty minimal). Basically a company
builds up a small fleet of drones, outfitted with the
appropriate gear. You create an account, input your coverage
area (or any region) that you want high resolution data for.
they reprogram the course and ship it to you (after
collecting the upfront payment, deposit, and massive
liability release) they provide you with a road course to
drive while the drone does its thing, anticipate points of
retrieval for recharge, etc. when its all done, you stick it
in the box and ship it back. would be cooler if the whole
thing was transported back and forth by amazon drones.
If I had a guarantee that the collected data would be
useful to the company, into radio mobile, link planner,
towercoverage, and SAS administrators, its something i could
see a fair price tag of 3-10k on it for our coverage area,
and no farmers blasted it out of the sky.
we use clutter data now thats antiquated so it would come
with the understanding that photosynthesis and bulldozers
impact accuracy from the minute its collected.
maybe this data is already out there and i dont know?
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