LIDAR is not clutter specific, it just can't penetrate clutter (it's light) so clutter ends up looking like terrain. The benefit is that you get an elevation, the drawback is that you don't know the type of clutter or how high it is above the terrain. I suppose if you compare the lidar data against a terrain only DEM, you could extract the clutter height. Here is the thing... some propagation does penetrate vegetation to some degree, so if you are talking about frequencies that do, then lidar is not necessarily a good thing to use as everything ends up looking like an obstruction. You also need a model that can actually account for clutter (vegetation) density when talking about how much it will affect the signal. Obviously leaf types and things like that can have other effects, but I'm unaware of any model that goes to that depth. While some account for clutter heights to use diffraction losses and some lump-sum type losses for a given clutter category, none of the models that are in use in the wisp industry account for clutter density and there are only a few in existence that do.
You can get high res clutter data (types) from thermal satellite imaging from one of the geospatial data companies like Terrapin Geographic, or SPOT. It is surprisingly accurate and is what real prop tools like Planet use. The downside is no elevations, so you still have user input for that. Unless you are willing to shell out big bucks, don't bother looking. We are talking about 10's of thousands for a modestly sized area. The cellcos can afford it. On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:41 AM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: > Interesting. And unfortunately I don't know any more about LIDAR than a > Google Search does. > > > On 12/5/2019 11:27 AM, Steve Jones wrote: > > Just the SAS administrators will be competitive product. So garbage in > garbage out will really apply. Basic SAS functionality is uniform, but > feature sets will differ. More accurate propagation modeling every night > will be something we benefit from and Im thinking that will be one of the > things they compete against each other with. They didnt say that > specifically, but the second iteration of SAS will be more bigger, > potentially even bigly in its scope. I really thought it was all going to > be modeled after cellco, with a bend toward cellcos overtaking CBRS with > shady handshakes and involuntary roaming agreements, but it appears > winnforum isnt just government lackeys, the people involved have actually > put gear in the air or at least listen to those that have. I think > cantgetright may have been a co-chair of a committee somewhere > > Where would a guy who doesnt know what LIDAR is go to find out more about > that clutter data? > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:12 AM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I think the USGS is making 3D clutter maps with LIDAR. CnHeat is >> supposed to use that wherever it's available. >> >> I haven't heard how that relates to the SAS though. Is this something >> you learned from the "450 Lady"? Care to share? >> >> >> >> On 12/5/2019 10:25 AM, Steve Jones wrote: >> >> first question is if a guy collects accurate clutter data, can he use it >> in any of the propagation tools we use? >> >> second, and this is where you braniacs come in, what equipment would it >> take on a drone to collect this data? >> >> IIRC drone limit without FAA is something like 300 feet. would that even >> be tall enough to sweep a wide enough path that it wouldnt take 300 battery >> charges to do a square mile? >> >> I envision a course plotted drone trip that will fly over with a pilot >> car trailing to maintain the required operator LOS. >> If you think about how many miles youve put on verifying link paths over >> the years, its not really a prohibitive thing. >> >> CBRS and SAS is whats driving this query, but general propagation >> anomalies creates quite a pickle that better accuracy/resolution clutter >> accuracy would alleviate. >> >> Please tell me there is already a consortium thats built out a clutter >> standard with a clutter submission mechanism, that would completely tickle >> me silly. >> >> I also dont know the impact to the propagation back ends as you increase >> the resolution of the data. Im assuming the SAS administrators are running >> something a little beefier than Radio Mobile. >> >> I could see this being a lucrative niche market, if there were a way >> around the drone operator licensing requirements (though that cost is >> pretty minimal). Basically a company builds up a small fleet of drones, >> outfitted with the appropriate gear. You create an account, input your >> coverage area (or any region) that you want high resolution data for. they >> reprogram the course and ship it to you (after collecting the upfront >> payment, deposit, and massive liability release) they provide you with a >> road course to drive while the drone does its thing, anticipate points of >> retrieval for recharge, etc. when its all done, you stick it in the box and >> ship it back. would be cooler if the whole thing was transported back and >> forth by amazon drones. >> >> If I had a guarantee that the collected data would be useful to the >> company, into radio mobile, link planner, towercoverage, and SAS >> administrators, its something i could see a fair price tag of 3-10k on it >> for our coverage area, and no farmers blasted it out of the sky. >> >> we use clutter data now thats antiquated so it would come with the >> understanding that photosynthesis and bulldozers impact accuracy from the >> minute its collected. >> >> maybe this data is already out there and i dont know? >> >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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