speaking solely from experience with Indigenous Australian knowledge where knowledge is passed orally across generations. The passing of knowledge is connected to place, family, and heritage when an indigenous person speak they first speak of their heritage, of their connect to the place, and of their family. This all establishes the origins of the story, the authority of the person to speak, and whos story they are telling. much like a bio of the author in a book establishes their expertise, version, and publication dates sets the when
when we share the oral knowledge we already have established notability and verifiability, when write the knowledge we dont damage or fix the knowledge we share just what it was at that one point and place in time. Culturally the knowledge will continue to be share via the traditional methods regardless. We have 200 years of recordings, oppression, dispossession, and usurpation of indigenous knowledge that shows it still continues externally to written forms. If we look at someone like Daisy Bates when we digest her work its relatively easy to establish the differences between her work in recording Indigenous knowledge, to the fictional works she sold to newspapers to earn a living. That same process she used a 100 years ago works for what we are doing now. We dont need to invent new methods nor do we need to wait for western sources to catchup all we need is that leap to accept oral source with the traditional authentications. While this is directly related to Indigenous Australian knowledge, the methodology will work where we adapt to the cultural authentications of the knowledge source and accept them as if we would a book, or journal and cite them appropriately. On 11 May 2018 at 20:52, Amir E. Aharoni <[email protected]> wrote: > What are the non-Western methods? > > בתאריך יום ו׳, 11 במאי 2018, 15:49, מאת Gnangarra <[email protected]>: > > > thats the bias we dont accept knowledge as genuine or authorative until > its > > been established by a westerner using western techniques. The whole > point > > of this discussion is that such a process invariably leads to bias, to > > solve bias we need to shift our acceptance to alternative cultural > methods > > of establishing notability and verifiability. > > > > The point is those non western methods are able to provide the same level > > of authority as the currently accepted methods, that the to make the > change > > isnt as disastrous as is being said because we adopt the method > appropriate > > for the knowledge source rather than ignoring the knowledge until its > > adapted to our way > > > > On 11 May 2018 at 20:32, Peter Southwood <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Yes, and we use those books and journal articles as sources. If they > are > > > written by an acknowledged expert or are peer reviewed, we may consider > > > them reliable sources. I don’t think this is what this discussion is > > about. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > > > Behalf Of FRED BAUDER > > > Sent: 11 May 2018 07:19 > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > People write books and journal articles which incorporate oral > > traditions. > > > The Bible is one example. That doesn't mean we are going to remove the > > > material about Native Americans migrating through Beringia but that, > if a > > > tribe's tradition is that it was always in the Americas, that should be > > > included in its article. Probably not enough to satisfy everyone... > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Peter Southwood <[email protected]> > > > To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List' <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Fri, 11 May 2018 00:34:15 -0400 (EDT) > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > If not written, how would they be referenced and verified? > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing > > > sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we > consider > > > sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not > > > written. > > > > > > JP > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for > > spammers > > > > and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved > > > > invitation. > > > > > > > > If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should > be > > > made > > > > at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing" a > > > > reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask > > > them > > > > to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article > accordingly > > > > based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess > what > > > > sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or > > > > whatever else have you types of information. If our references are > > > flawed, > > > > the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not > > > > "correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, > we > > do > > > > not second-guess, dispute, or correct them. > > > > > > > > Todd > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people > > > wanting > > > > > to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times > change. > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] > > On > > > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > > > > > If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have > started > > > > > Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone > > > > without > > > > > any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed > to > > > > fail. > > > > > Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is > not > > > to > > > > > remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change > those > > > > > requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing > > > > knowledge. I > > > > > think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are > ready > > > to > > > > do > > > > > that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of > Wikipedia > > > > when > > > > > we opened editing to anybody. > > > > > > > > > > JP > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in > spite > > of > > > > > > notability and verifiability requirements, Without the > > verifiability > > > > > > requirement it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are > > > > things > > > > > > that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer > > > evidence, > > > > > and > > > > > > where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is > > > intangible, > > > > > the > > > > > > authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means > > track > > > > > > record and proof of identity. > > > > > > This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see > > it > > > as > > > > > > possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a > > > > reliable > > > > > > source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without > destroying > > > the > > > > > > credibility we have. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@ > lists.wikimedia.org] > > > On > > > > > > Behalf Of Gnangarra > > > > > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50 > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > > > > > > > notability and verifiability are important, every culture and > > > > language > > > > > > has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture > > > > manage > > > > > > successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the > > western > > > > > styles > > > > > > were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue > is > > > how > > > > > do > > > > > > we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect > > > them, > > > > > > how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do > > is > > > > not > > > > > > the only. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our > > current > > > > > > systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the > citations > > > > from > > > > > > books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and > > > value > > > > > > alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the > > question > > > > is > > > > > do > > > > > > we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the > > sum > > > of > > > > > all > > > > > > knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current > > > knowledge > > > > > > networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the > > wikipedia > > > > but > > > > > > rather the creation of new project to bring forth these > alternative > > > > > > knowledge streams > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias > where > > a > > > > > member > > > > > > > of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity > though: > > > > > > > https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10. > > > > > > > 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are many things that can be addressed individually and > as a > > > > > > movement > > > > > > > or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I > > > > > > personally > > > > > > > do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal > > > > > > impressions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood < > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to > > > > produce > > > > > > > > reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints > > > opens > > > > > the > > > > > > > > doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to > > remain > > > > > open > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust > > > alternatives. > > > > > > Other > > > > > > > > projects may work around this problem, but would then > probably > > > not > > > > be > > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@ > > > lists.wikimedia.org] > > > > > On > > > > > > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > > > > > > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01 > > > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing > problems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the > > canon > > > of > > > > > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" > as > > > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > > > > that could be improved. We have a very western approach to > that > > > > > saying > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > it needs to be published in such books or journals to be > > notable > > > > > > enough, > > > > > > > > when different cultures use different ways to build their > canon > > > of > > > > > > > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JP > > > > > > > > User:Amqui > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: Jane Darnell <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]. > org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing > > problems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, > > > > > > > > > Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will > > > never > > > > > be > > > > > > > able > > > > > > > > > to correct it." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the > > canon > > > > of > > > > > > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and > > other > > > > > bias > > > > > > > > issues > > > > > > > > > are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than > > > full > > > > > > > > correction > > > > > > > > > of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > and > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > > > > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > > > > > > > http://www.avg.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > GN. > > > > > > Noongarpedia: > > https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > > > > Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never > Again: > > > > > > Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, > > 2017. > > > > > > Order > > > > > > here > > > > > > < > > > > > > https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again- > > > > > reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > GN. > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: > > Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. > > Order > > here > > < > > https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again- > reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 > > > > > . > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > -- GN. Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order here <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8> . _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
