thats the bias we dont accept knowledge as genuine or authorative until its been established by a westerner using western techniques. The whole point of this discussion is that such a process invariably leads to bias, to solve bias we need to shift our acceptance to alternative cultural methods of establishing notability and verifiability.
The point is those non western methods are able to provide the same level of authority as the currently accepted methods, that the to make the change isnt as disastrous as is being said because we adopt the method appropriate for the knowledge source rather than ignoring the knowledge until its adapted to our way On 11 May 2018 at 20:32, Peter Southwood <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes, and we use those books and journal articles as sources. If they are > written by an acknowledged expert or are peer reviewed, we may consider > them reliable sources. I don’t think this is what this discussion is about. > Cheers, > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of FRED BAUDER > Sent: 11 May 2018 07:19 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > People write books and journal articles which incorporate oral traditions. > The Bible is one example. That doesn't mean we are going to remove the > material about Native Americans migrating through Beringia but that, if a > tribe's tradition is that it was always in the Americas, that should be > included in its article. Probably not enough to satisfy everyone... > > > Fred > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Southwood <[email protected]> > To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List' <[email protected]> > Sent: Fri, 11 May 2018 00:34:15 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > If not written, how would they be referenced and verified? > Cheers, > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing > sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider > sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not > written. > > JP > > On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for spammers > > and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved > > invitation. > > > > If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should be > made > > at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing" a > > reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask > them > > to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article accordingly > > based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess what > > sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or > > whatever else have you types of information. If our references are > flawed, > > the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not > > "correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, we do > > not second-guess, dispute, or correct them. > > > > Todd > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people > wanting > > > to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] On > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started > > > Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone > > without > > > any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed to > > fail. > > > Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not > to > > > remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those > > > requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing > > knowledge. I > > > think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready > to > > do > > > that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia > > when > > > we opened editing to anybody. > > > > > > JP > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite of > > > > notability and verifiability requirements, Without the verifiability > > > > requirement it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are > > things > > > > that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer > evidence, > > > and > > > > where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is > intangible, > > > the > > > > authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means track > > > > record and proof of identity. > > > > This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see it > as > > > > possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a > > reliable > > > > source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying > the > > > > credibility we have. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] > On > > > > Behalf Of Gnangarra > > > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50 > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > > > notability and verifiability are important, every culture and > > language > > > > has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture > > manage > > > > successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the western > > > styles > > > > were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue is > how > > > do > > > > we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect > them, > > > > how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do is > > not > > > > the only. > > > > > > > > There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our current > > > > systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the citations > > from > > > > books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and > value > > > > alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the question > > is > > > do > > > > we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the sum > of > > > all > > > > knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current > knowledge > > > > networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts. > > > > > > > > Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the wikipedia > > but > > > > rather the creation of new project to bring forth these alternative > > > > knowledge streams > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where a > > > member > > > > > of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though: > > > > > https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10. > > > > > 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4 > > > > > > > > > > There are many things that can be addressed individually and as a > > > > movement > > > > > or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I > > > > personally > > > > > do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal > > > > impressions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > > > El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to > > produce > > > > > > reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints > opens > > > the > > > > > > doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to remain > > > open > > > > to > > > > > > anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust > alternatives. > > > > Other > > > > > > projects may work around this problem, but would then probably > not > > be > > > > > open > > > > > > for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@ > lists.wikimedia.org] > > > On > > > > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > > > > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01 > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > > > > > > > "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon > of > > > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge." > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > > that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that > > > saying > > > > > that > > > > > > it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable > > > > enough, > > > > > > when different cultures use different ways to build their canon > of > > > > > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > JP > > > > > > User:Amqui > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER < > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: Jane Darnell <[email protected]> > > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > > > > > > > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, > > > > > > > Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will > never > > > be > > > > > able > > > > > > > to correct it." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon > > of > > > > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, > > Wikipedia > > > > > will > > > > > > > reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other > > > bias > > > > > > issues > > > > > > > are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than > full > > > > > > correction > > > > > > > of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > > > > > http://www.avg.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > GN. > > > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > > Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: > > > > Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. > > > > Order > > > > here > > > > < > > > > https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again- > > > reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 > > > > > > > > > . > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > -- GN. Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order here <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8> . _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
