About the second mailing list: there was request to create one: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52947 but this variant was rejected by Board
2013/8/18 <[email protected]> > Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode > (Pavlo Shevelo) > 2. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode > (Manuel Schneider) > 3. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode > (Federico Leva (Nemo)) > 4. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode > (Pavlo Shevelo) > 5. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode > (Manuel Schneider) > 6. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode > (Ziko van Dijk) > 7. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode > (Pavlo Shevelo) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:36:24 +0300 > From: Pavlo Shevelo <[email protected]> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to > 'read-only' mode > Message-ID: > < > cae4eyto0u6ybweldzrju+2qxrrkjgessm6wfyq+vcv53eg+...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for > unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [ > WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to > read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit > Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them. > > It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with > much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations. > > Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing > list from the times long before the said ruling are: > * 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director) > and > * 1 member of Audit Committee. > All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision. > > As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known, > when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate? > > If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why > it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this > person will have to go deep into struggle: > > * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board; > * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some > of WMUA Board members > * ...etc. > > and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'. > > Sincerely, > > Pavlo Shevelo > (my WPnick is the same :)) > > [1] > > http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013 > > [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua > [3] See the Talk page for [1] > [4] > > http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013 > > Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why > URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the > idea, at least for [1], which is most important > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:03:12 +0200 > From: Manuel Schneider <[email protected]> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to > 'read-only' mode > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Dear Pavlo, > > as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide > how to use that list. > > For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there > is WikiUK-l: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l > > If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business > which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am > sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new > list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will > become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed > by the concerned community. > > > /Manuel > -- > Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens > Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:45:48 +0200 > From: "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[email protected]> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to > 'read-only' mode > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36: > > As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known, > > when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate? > > Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do > the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to > discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members > of the chapters, as defined by the bylaws? > (One is not always easy to set up.) > > > > > If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is > why > > it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this > > person will have to go deep into struggle: > > > > * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board; > > * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some > > of WMUA Board members > > * ...etc. > > So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the > board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than > in most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the > other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space. > > Nemo > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 18:47:40 +0300 > From: Pavlo Shevelo <[email protected]> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to > 'read-only' mode > Message-ID: > < > cae4eytpfpxd70946ydzzr-d0pkgni5ae-s-ptz2-bmjfhft...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Dear Manuel, > > Thanks for your swift comment & advice, I appreciate (while I'm one of the > administrators at WikiUK-l, by the way :) ). > > Forgive me for missing the detail which was obvious for me - I'm WMUA > member (from the moment of it legal registration back in 2009) so I'm from > inside WMUA as a project as well as 40+ more WMUA members (beside Board and > AC). In your wording - I'm well inside of "chapter business", the issue is > with the missing (or invalid?) process "the chapter may decide how to use > that list". > > That was clear for me (and explained by me in local discussions - in said > mailing list and on community Portal) that if Board needs something only > for announcements ("WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar"), they should > contact "folks at WMF" and arrange new, additional list (like WMF Board did > some years after creation of 'universal' list). > > In addition to that nobody never settled in proper way, that [WikimediaUA] > is "the project list" (if WMUA is not the project by itself) and, moreover, > it should be "controlled by the board" to that extent as WMUA Board it > defined and settled for themselves. > > So I remain with my question about > is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? > Does it seems appropriate? > > All more advices how to create alternative mailing list with help of: > * "folks at WMF" > * automatic services/stuff at Google (like Google groups etc.) > will be appreciated, but it's not the main focus of my interest. > > Sincerely, > > Pavlo > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Manuel Schneider < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Dear Pavlo, > > > > as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide > > how to use that list. > > > > For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there > > is WikiUK-l: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l > > > > If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business > > which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am > > sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new > > list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will > > become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed > > by the concerned community. > > > > > > /Manuel > > -- > > Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens > > Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:58:13 +0200 > From: Manuel Schneider <[email protected]> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to > 'read-only' mode > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo: > > is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings? > > all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such > as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we > had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list. > Nobody questioned that change. > > > Does it seems appropriate? > > My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration > of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an > appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was > the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could > also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well. > So from my point of view it is really up to the community at > WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate > replacement or if another list is needed due to this change. > > /Manuel > -- > Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens > Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 18:04:40 +0200 > From: Ziko van Dijk <[email protected]> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to > 'read-only' mode > Message-ID: > <CAGC3U7jf8WuFQCgd= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hello, > This is actually a good question for > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Research/Survey_1 > How do chapter boards make use of the board mailing list, and how about the > general mailing list of the association. Actually, the mailing list of > WMNL, Wikimedianl-l, doesn't show very much activity. Everyone can join and > post. But I can imagine scenarios in which a chapter decides to change > that. > Kind regards > Ziko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. Ziko van Dijk > voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland > > Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland > Postbus 167 > 3500 AD Utrecht > http://wikimedia.nl > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > 2013/8/18 Pavlo Shevelo <[email protected]> > > > According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for > > unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [ > > WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to > > read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit > > Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them. > > > > It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but > with > > much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations. > > > > Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] > mailing > > list from the times long before the said ruling are: > > * 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director) > > and > > * 1 member of Audit Committee. > > All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision. > > > > As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known, > > when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate? > > > > If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is > why > > it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this > > person will have to go deep into struggle: > > > > * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board; > > * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some > > of WMUA Board members > > * ...etc. > > > > and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Pavlo Shevelo > > (my WPnick is the same :)) > > > > [1] > > > > > http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013 > > > > [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua > > [3] See the Talk page for [1] > > [4] > > > > > http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013 > > > > Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why > > URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the > > idea, at least for [1], which is most important > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 19:26:36 +0300 > From: Pavlo Shevelo <[email protected]> > To: "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <[email protected]> > Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to > 'read-only' mode > Message-ID: > <CAE4eYtMv7dHEdUoCqwqShci0aTzFT=D6cjJvwvULJCOJ= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Oh Federico (or should I use Nemo as the name? :) ), > > Seemingly you almost grasped (groked) what I'm talking about and that > "almost" is caused by my problems in English (it's not my native language > and I suffer from lack of practice :( ). > > So we need some more clarification and let me start from the bottom up (as > of the text of your mail): > > > that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the board? > > If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in most > chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); > > Definitely NO, while we think (not only dream) about that level of > transparency. As I'm one of the believers, that "this is necessarily a good > thing", I dared even to propose that several times to Board members. > > But from the very beginning of WMUA the Board has separate mailing list > (without archive, what is significant in some situations like change of > Board members) and in addition they build Board' wikisite which is closed > as well (only AC members ver granted by access - after long struggle so as > sorta gifted compromise, while it was never accepted by the community). > So said mailing list they ...occupy only for "Urbi et orbi" purposes or it > will be more exact to say only for "urbi" (strictly confidential for WMUA). > > > on the other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space. > > YES it does replace or, to be more exact, "all-members discussion space" is > converted to Board announcement place (all others but AC is in "sit down > and listen" mode strictly). > > > better question is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and > working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties > and rights as members of the chapter > > Since said ruling - not in the mailing list(s), while community Portal > survived (yet? the administrators there are ...surprise - Board and AC > members as well). As we all know discussions on the wiki (like Portals, > Village pumps etc.) doesn't eliminate the need of mailing list. > > > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36: > > > > As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known, > >> when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate? > >> > > > > Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do > > the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to > > discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members > of > > the chapters, as defined by the bylaws? > > (One is not always easy to set up.) > > > > > > > >> If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is > why > >> it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this > >> person will have to go deep into struggle: > >> > >> * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board; > >> * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some > >> of WMUA Board members > >> * ...etc. > >> > > > > So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the > > board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in > > most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the other > > hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space. > > > > Nemo > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 113, Issue 45 > ******************************************** > -- Анатолій Гончаров mailto:[email protected] ICQ: 364-176-156 _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
