Yep, I agree. Where should _that_ discussion happen? -J
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Michael MacFadden <michael.macfad...@gmail.com> wrote: > A google hang out amongst wave developers is a great idea. However this is > not a substitute for presenting and discussing the future of OT with the > active research community. > > ~Michael > > On Jun 16, 2013, at 5:32 PM, John Blossom <jblos...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Joseph, my thought is that we can have a Google+ Hangout and invite >> everyone in the Wave community and beyond interested in OT and related >> issues. Doesn't have to be perfect, we just need to get the >> dialogue.rolling, it seems. We can always have more. Say Weds or Thursday >> around 1700 UT+1? Pick a number. John >> >> All the best, >> >> John Blossom >> >> email: jblos...@gmail.com >> phone: 203.293.8511 >> google+: https://google.com/+JohnBlossom >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Joseph Gentle <jose...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Sounds interesting. Where is this going to be held? It might be >>> interesting for a few people on this list, too. >>> >>> -J >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Michael MacFadden >>> <michael.macfad...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> After hooking up with Google for wave. I have been the lead architect >>> for an OT framework much like the real time drive API being built at my >>> company. I am encouraging my developers to reengage the apache community so >>> we can actively contribute back. We have also done a in depth literature >>> review regarding OT and have worked with many other teams adding OT to >>> several projects. >>>> >>>> I personally will be chairing the 14th International Workshop on >>> Collaborative Editing Systems (IWCES) at the ACM Computer Supported >>> Collaborative Work (CSCW) conference next February. This workshop is one of >>> the primary places where leading OT researchers, industry, and open source >>> projects come to exchange ideas. >>>> >>>> I think this would be a very good community for you to get involved with >>> if you are looking at OT. There are a lot of lessons learned, especially on >>> using OT for rich document editing (word, PowerPoint, Vim, etc. ). >>>> >>>> I am sure there are more than enough extremely smart folks on the Open >>> Office team, but perhaps I/we could help out if you are not to far along. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> ~Michael >>>> >>>> On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Rob Weir <robw...@apache.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Adding Svante Schubert to the thread, from the ODF Toolkit project. >>>>> He also chairs the subcommittee at OASIS that has been looking at OT >>>>> for change tracking in ODF. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Michael MacFadden >>>>> <michael.macfad...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/16/13 2:51 PM, "Michael MacFadden" <michael.macfad...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Rob, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would be interested in continuing this conversation. I have been >>>>>>> working with the top minds in OT for the past few years. I am excited >>> to >>>>>>> hear the OO is interested in an OT supported mechanism. How far along >>> are >>>>>>> you in the process? >>>>> >>>>> It is very early and mainly happening in the standards committee at >>>>> OASIS. The ultimate aim is to have something that could work across >>>>> applications, not just between two OpenOffice instances. So this >>>>> requires a sensitivity to the document model abstraction, to work at >>>>> the ODF level, not just with an application's internal view of a >>>>> document. >>>>> >>>>> OpenOffice committers are involved in the standardization side of >>>>> this, as well as LibreOffice and Calligra and Gnumeric, as well as >>>>> Microsoft. >>>>> >>>>> Initially it is about defining the document model, in a way that makes >>>>> sense to the user. Since tracked changes are visible to the user, to >>>>> approve or reject, we need it at a granularity that makes sense to >>>>> them. Then based on those primitives, and the associated actions, we >>>>> can develop an XML-based notation for expressing the state >>>>> transformations. That gets us to the static/stored form of >>>>> traditional change tracking. >>>>> >>>>> Not in plan officially is the next step, which would be the protocols >>>>> for exchanging such information in real-time. But it is a possibility >>>>> (even a likelihood) that is informing our design decisions. We're >>>>> mindful that the real-time collaborative editing is the logical next >>>>> step and we're trying to lay the right foundations for that at the >>>>> format level. >>>>> >>>>> One sub-goal, for enabling the real-time side of this, would be to >>>>> standardize the protocols at some level, so clients from different >>>>> vendors could do this kind of collaboration in a heterogeneous kind of >>>>> way. Is there anything in Wave that would be a good basis for a >>>>> standard? >>>>> >>>>> Of course a perfectly valid approach would be to prototype first and >>>>> then standardize. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> ~Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2013, at 11:00 AM, Rob Weir <robw...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not subscribed to this list, but Christian Grobmeier pointed me >>> to >>>>>>>> John's post about how OT and Wave could be relevant to OpenOffice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wanted to mention that the idea is being discussed, but at the >>>>>>>> standards level. The default document format for OpenOffice is Open >>>>>>>> Document Format (ODF), which is standardized at OASIS and ISO. (I >>>>>>>> chair the committee at OASIS). We're currently working on ODF 1.3 >>> and >>>>>>>> as part of that we're adding a new change tracking mechanism based on >>>>>>>> OT. This is the traditional asynchronous change tracking that office >>>>>>>> suites have had for years, but modeled on OT terms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And, although not specified at this point, we're also aware that OT >>>>>>>> enables more interesting modes of collaboration, including >>>>>>>> synchronous/real-time, co-editing, etc. That's the main reason the >>> OT >>>>>>>> approach is attractive, is that we can have a single model that will >>>>>>>> work for change tracking as well as co-editing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once we get the standard side of this elaborated in more details, >>> then >>>>>>>> the next step will be to get it implemented in Apache OpenOffice as >>>>>>>> well as the Apache ODF Toolit (incubating). But the pace of >>>>>>>> standardization is slow, and I wouldn't expect this before 2014. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Opinions expressed in this communication reflect the author's >>>>> individual personal view, not necessarily that of an amorphous >>>>> collective. The above statements do not reflect an official position >>>>> of any organization, corporation, religion (organized or disorganized) >>>>> or national football association. The contents of said note are not >>>>> guaranteed to have been spell checked, grammar checked or reviewed for >>>>> metrical infelicities. The contents of this post may not be suitable >>>>> for those whose native language is not logic. Caution should be >>>>> exercised when operating heavy machinery when reading this note, or >>>>> even when not reading it. Seriously, heavy machinery is dangerous. >>>>> Be careful. >>>
