On 3/20/06, Michael Jouravlev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Compare the (upcoming)
> > > > implementation of the iBATIS JPetStore application (implemented with
> > > > Struts, but with a "dispatch actions" hack)
> > >
> > > Who's making it? iBatis guys? I am interested, I am fond of "dispatch
> > > action hacks."
> >
> >
> > Figured you might be :-).
> >
> > The starting point for this is the "JPetStore 5.0 Example Application"
> > available at:
> >
> > http://ibatis.apache.org/javadownloads.html
> >
> > I'm not done with the conversion yet, but it ends up being much less
> > interesting than I had expected -- pretty much 1:1 mechanical
> conversions.
>
> Thanks, I will check it out!
>
> > > I agree that a component framework has its benefits. But with upgrade
> > > from Struts to JSF why not to upgrate the whole platform including OS?
> > > JSF is a component framework. JSF is not the component framework.
> >
> >
> > Please show me an alternative component framework (in the Java
> landscape)
> > that has attracted anything close to the same level of attention.
>
> Did you see that I mentioned a different OS? As in operating system,
> not open source ;-) I meant Windows + ASP.NET.
Agreed that this is a very popular combination of technologies.
ASP.NET 2.0 is very
> good, and upcoming WPF will blow everything else away.
>From what I've read, agree that WPF is likely to be quite cool.
Disagree that it will "blow everything away" ... inertia is real. Ask
Microsoft how many of their VB6 users are *really* unhappy because the .NET
framework has basically abandoned them.
I am also
> reading about RoR now and the language (Ruby) as well as framework do
> look really nice. Though RoR may not be a component framework.
RoR is interesting, and definitely delivers some productivity gains in some
areas. It is not clear to me (yet) how it will stack up when you have to go
back and maintain existing applications ... after all, that's the vast
majority of the cost of most deployed applications.
RoR is not a component framework by my definition ... but you'll have to
wait until after TSSJS this week so I can post my slides documenting my
definition. (NOTE -- by my definition, Struts doesn't have components
either :-).
> > There is no upgrade path from Struts to JSF, even JSP pages are
> > > different. The fact that JSP is now regarded as "that crusty stuff we
> > > brought with us to make show that JSF provides backward compatibility"
> > > does not make JSF more appealing that other component frameworks. Oh
> > > right, JSF *is* a standard.
> >
> > Talk to me in six months. Talk to me in a year. Guess who is going to
> be
> > smiling about what happened :-).
>
> More like a year than 6 months. But I do know what will happen. JSF
> will win. It is the official standard, it has real benefits over
> Struts, it has vendor support, I guess it starts gaining employers'
> support too (I don't see it, but it would be logical to develop
> application with tools that are/will be widely used, smart from
> business standpoint).
>
> I am not actually arguing that JSF will win, Frank does ;-) I just
> think that it will be not exactly a fair and square win ("we all
> gathered here for technology, not for politics" is B.S. that I don't
> care about). But comparing to soviet-like single-party MS-land,
> Javaland is still a Wild West of software development ;)
What is "unfair" about the fact that standards exist? What is "unfair"
about the fact that some people might actually like it, either *because* it
is a standard or *in spite of the fact* that it is a standard? That's life.
The nice thing about open source is that you don't have follow standards if
you don't want to -- just be aware that not everyone will believe as you do,
no matter how cool your stuff is. It's also much easier to gain acceptance
in areas that don't have such standards (Struts did, five years ago this
June, and the magnitude of that success has created a corresponding inertia
in the Java web app framework space that anyone interested in "competing"
has to overcome).
Michael.
Craig
