On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 5:04 AM, Michael Zanetti < michael.zane...@canonical.com> wrote:
> Hi, > > Matthew, thanks for th detailed reply. > > On 22.09.2015 18:36, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: > > Michael Zanetti wrote on 21/09/15 09:30: > > > >> ... > > > >> If you go through launchpad bugs, you'll find lots of bugs related > >> to volume control [1][2][3][4]. Let me summarize it up here: > > > >> The biggest issue is that the volume buttons are completely > >> unpredictable. They control a different volume level each time you > >> touch them. For instance, play some game with a background music, > >> press the volume buttons. It will adjust the game's sound level > >> (maybe, with a bit of luck). Then start the game "Dinosaur" from > >> the store and try again, you'll notice that while playing this game > >> the volume buttons don't affect the sound made by the game any more > >> but instead they'll leave the game at 100% volume, > > > > This is probably "Volume obtained is 100% in multimedia sink for > > sounds from app" <http://launchpad.net/bugs/1485522>. > > > >> while silencing your phone call ringtones. This is the thing that > >> makes me lose phone calls all the time. I play some game with the > >> phone, and when I'm done my ringtones are silenced without me even > >> knowing. > > > > Have you reported the bug of the ringtone being silenced? That seems > > like a separate bug from the game volume being set to 100%. > > Well, this is not really a bug in an implementation itself, but rather > in the way we use the buttons. I press volume down a couple of times > wanting to adjust the game value, but instead it acts on the ringtone > volume because the game currently doesn't play a sound. The short sound > effects are too short to make the buttons act on them in a useful way. > So it sounds like this is really the major issue to fix and it's one that can be fixed in some fairly straightforward ways. One would be a separate slider for the specific role to control the volume of sound effects. Michael, I'm trying to remember specifically - for any game you've written, are you using the alert audio role for the sound effects or multimedia role? > > > >> Another issue is that currently there's not really way to figure > >> what volume level your device is set to. The slider in the > >> indicator is quite meaningless, given it will fool you by > >> displaying some value, but next time a sound is produced it will > >> jump to some different value before playing the sound. > > > > I thought this was what your first cited bug report was about, but you > > seem to be sure that it is not, so I've reported it separately. > > <http://launchpad.net/bugs/1498466> > > > >> This also creates the issue that there's no way to control your > >> sound level *before* you start a game, means you can't really start > >> a game on Ubuntu Touch in a place where you can't make noise, > >> because you have no chance to set the volume before it starts > >> playing. > > > > In theory, you can go into Silent Mode before you start the game. > > > > In practice, this doesn't work because of a separate problem: Silent > > Mode requires care from app developers, but our SDK makes it highly > > impractical. It requires care from app developers, because the OS > > alone can't tell which sounds should play even in Silent Mode (alarms, > > manually-played videos, language-training exercises) and which should > > not (ringtones, background music, game cutscenes, sound effects). And > > our SDK makes it highly impractical, firstly because we give no hint > > how to do it <https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/search/?q=silent+mode>, > > and secondly because even if we did, a developer would need to > > remember to wrap an > > if(getUserValue("com.ubuntu.touch.AccountsService.Sound", > > "SilentMode").toBool()){...} or equivalent around every sound that > > should not play in Silent Mode -- which, most of the time, they'll > > forget to do. > > <http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/06/01/%23ubuntu-touch.html#t15:26> > > Hmm, I think this is a good point where we have a different > understanding: You say in silent mode some things should be silenced > (ringtones, background music, sound effects) but some things should > still be playing (manually-played videos). > I for one would assume that when I put silent mode on my phone, it is > silent. Even manually played videos shouldn't make a sound unless I > explicitly raise the multimedia volume which would exit silent mode. > Note that I'm not necessarily saying this would also raise ringtone > volumes. Ringtone volumes might still be at 0, but it's not in "silent > mode" any more. When the phone says it is in silent mode, I rely on the > fact that I can do whatever I want with it and it won't make a sound. > > I guess alarms would be a special case indeed here which might escape > the silent mode and still are allowed to make sounds there. Not sure... > I guess alarms from the clock application are different than calendar > entries there. I would want my phone to wake me up in the morning even > though I left it in silent mode yesterday, however, in silent mode I > don't want my phone to ring a calendar entry every hour. Maybe calendar > entries should use the multimedia or ringtone role too and only real > alarms from the clock app have the special alarm casing... > > I agree that relying on the app developer to take care about it is not > way to go here. > > > > >> I've spent some time to figure where the issue is coming from and > >> what a solution could be. The main reason where this issue is > >> coming from is that we have a number of different audio roles that > >> applications are using. The volume buttons, as well as the slider > >> in the indicators try to be clever in knowing which role they > >> should address whenever you touch them. This, however, seems to > >> reliably fail in 99% of the cases you want to use it. > > > > Maybe the roles are the problem, or maybe they aren't. We can't tell, > > as long as the three bugs above aren't fixed. > > > >> So here's my proposal: > > > >> * Let's drop all the audio roles we have except for ringtone > >> (alert) and multimedia. We don't need more of them, it'll make > >> things unnecessarily complex. > > > > Proposing to revamp the audio roles here is like camping at night: > > you're being bitten by bugs, and it's more frustrating than usual, > > because they're bugs you can hear but not see. Your proposed solution > > is to replace the tent. > > > > Well, maybe the tent is the problem. But let's try getting rid of the > > bugs inside the current tent first. > > > >> * Make the hardware buttons always control the multimedia volume, > >> that is, game sounds, music player etc but don't ever touch > >> ringtone volume with them. > > > > As Alan Pope pointed out, that would mean you couldn't quiet a ringing > > phone. Your response was to independently devise one detail of the > > current design: > > Yes. As I replied to Alan in another mail of this thread, I agree, I've > missed that at first. > > > > >> Probably the hardware buttons should then control ringtone volume > >> while no app is focused (or a call indication is on top) and > >> control the multimedia volume whenever an app is focused or > >> media-hub is playing in the background. > > > > Similar to the current design: <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sound#role> > > | > > | * Otherwise, if media is playing, the active output role should be > > | "multimedia". > > | * Otherwise, the active role should be "alert". > > > > ("Alert" here includes ringtones. If you're playing music and your > > phone rings, you should still be able to adjust the ringtone volume, > > because the music should have paused automatically.) > > I think the main difference here is "if media is playing" vs "if an app > with audio permission is focused". An app (for example Dinosaur) might > not be playing any background music, just very short sound effects. > Those sounds are too short for the user to react on them and press the > volume buttons. By the time the buttons are pressed, we're back in the > alert role and the user controls the ringtone instead of those sound > effects. > > > > >> * Make the volume slider in the indicator always control the > >> multimedia volume, never touch the ringtone volume. > > > > Besides the same problem of quieting a ringing phone, this is also > > funny because Michał Sawicz proposed the exact opposite: "Sound > > indicator should only indicate ringtone volume" > > <http://launchpad.net/bugs/1478075>. (Though he never explained why.) > > If we continue to only have one slider, yes, it should probably be the > ringtone one. But I would really suggest to add multiple sliders. One > for each role except the one for alarms. > > > > >> * Apps should always use the multimedia role, regardless of what > >> they do (unless thy deal with actual calls or incoming messages). > > > > So should VoIP apps -- Skype, Google Hangouts, Facebook Messenger, etc > > -- use the same "actual calls" volume level for their calls? It would > > be odd if they didn't. But if they should, that's a third role. > > Why is that a third role? IMO just the same as the primary ringtone role. > > > > >> * Add a second "slider" to the indicators that controls ringtone > >> volume. That slider could be a bit special tho, i.e. that it works > >> more like a profile selector. 0 is "vibrate only", 1 is "beep" and > >> all the greater values adjust volume of the ringtones. > > > > Making Silent Mode part of the volume slider is an interesting idea > > (and Android and Windows Phone do this already), but that does not > > require changing the roles or adding extra sliders. > > > > Apparently "beep" is an old Nokia feature, but I'm not confident that > > people would understand what it was for if it was part of a volume > > slider. > > > >> One thing I've not mentioned here yet are alarms. Alarms, again > >> could/should have their own role. > > > > Well then, now we're up to four roles ... the same as the current > > design! > > Not really, so far there's two, and the alarm, which I probably wouldn't > treat like the other two roles. Meaning, an alarm doesn't need to be > adjusted like the others, by pressing the hardware buttons or having a > slider for them, the volume for them is defined when the alarm is set > up. So yes, it could be a "role" in that sense, but more hidden than the > other two. > > > > > So, yes, the current four roles are complex. And maybe they need > > tweaking. But it's unlikely that they're *unnecessarily* complex. > > > >> But one never controls that role with either the buttons or a > >> slider. Instead, each alarm has his own volume value assigned when > >> the alarm is created, and an alarm is always played at the volume > >> its config says (except maybe only vibrate when the phone profile > >> is set to vibrate only - but those are small details we could work > >> out on the road). > > > >> ... > > > > That would have two drawbacks. First, it would make the UI more > > complex for every app that sets alarms -- even in just the > > default/impending-default apps, we'd need volume sliders in Clock, > > Calendar, Tasks, and Notes. Yikes. > > IMO that would be quite nice tbh... > > > > > Second, it implies that "The volume I specified for the alarm, however > > long ago I did that" is more likely to be appropriate *now* than "the > > volume I adjusted, or was okay with, the last time an alarm went off". > > I think the reverse is true. > > I think of it rather this way: The alarm that wakes me up in the morning > should always be the same volume, regardless of the volume that reminds > me of meetings during the day. I would want to have alarms for calendar > entries rather silent to not disturb the whole office all day long, but > the morning alarm needs to be full force ahead, or I'll sleep in. And I > can't manage to remind myself every evening to check and adjust the > alarm volume for the next morning. > > Br, > Michael > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone > Post to : ubuntu-phone@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >
-- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone Post to : ubuntu-phone@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
