I agree that tools are important and they contribute to the success of a technology but they are very secondary ( sorry for discouragement Hugo, Steve, Geoff and others). There are reasons why I think tools are somehow secondary: PHP and Ruby â they do not even have tools like IDE which would provide very important IMO features like: code completion, code navigation, refactoring etc. Despite that PHP, Ruby, Python are very popular; VB and Delphi (PowerBuilder? - did not use it myself ) were GREAT visual environments to work in, but they faded away; But I agree that success of a technology greatly depends on perceived convenience: however the convenience does not come solely from UI and aid tools, it should be embedded in a technology. From this perspective I think it is more important to address inconveniences at the root level rather try to address them via tools of any kind. As such inconveniences I would list: not self evident method and interface names â for example that init value in Tapestry: it is VERY counterintuitive and hard to accept that page gets 'initialized' when released back to pool. Although it makes sense from T internal perspective. Another example is the thing ALL the Tapestry newbies hit: rewind and its most noticeable effect: presence of absence expected values for listener depending on place of 'submit' button on the form. Again: that does makes sense from Tapestry perspective, but VERY unintuitive and comes as a surprise . Not that I want to discourage all the tool builders, I rather want us all to keep in mind cornerstone things and try to improve foundation first.
Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes, that JSF article was a bit hilarious. Has anyone blogged about it? I know folks haven't heard from us (The Lab - http://www.thelabllc.com) for a while, but we are trying to do just that with Cognition - have good development tools for Tapestry. Right now it is a little tied to Spring / Hibernate, but we are making some new project templates that will be much more stripped down versions where you don't have to use Spring or Hibernate if you don't want to. We'd like to incorporate the following projects and functionality: Spindle, Palette, Trails, Tacos, etc. We are trying to develop a roadmap where we can merge best of features with Trails folk in the future and find $ to support Geoff and other Spindle efforts. Not enough bandwidth with this and paid projects. We need some help and I'm trying to convince business people that Tapestry is the way to go (as we all are) - because we are not going to get there with developer power alone. I truly believe we will have greater success and adoption with Tapestry as a whole if we have some great tools for it and make it easier to use. We need to attract people that are not yet part of the clan, who don't have to be gurus. That is why Visual Basic caught on, and things like PHP and Ruby are exploding. Do most of us think these are all inferior technologies? Yes. But engineers thought of C in the same light back in the day and it eventually won out. There is no reason we can't make great architecture easy to use - Tapestry is already a testament to that, but can go to the next level with some great tools that are up to date with the latest core code. Releases - we've made some improvements and added some cool features but have been reticent to do another wide release yet. We are improving some of our internal processes so we can have more releases and access to current trunk. We released an update to the cognition-user dev list but will release something to the larger dev community by next week. Thanks all for your support - any ideas and involvement is appreciated. Quoting Konstantin Ignatyev : > I am so tired of JSF crowd flip-flop on the subject of > tooling. One moment they preach JSF as great technology because it allows > tools, but when asked to name one JSF tool that really works and allows > creating application in it in the same way Delphi and VB, they immediately > flop and say that you do not really need any 'tool' to be productive with > JSF.... > > > As for IDE support for Tapestry: combination of DreamWeaver and > IntelliJ-IDEA works very well for me in this scenario: > > entire look and feel (draft of course) for an application can be done in > DW without writing single line of code; > > then the application mockup can be demoed to customer and modified > immediately if necessary; > > > > The nice thing about this stage is that DW mockup demonstrates behavior of > the application as well as its look, and all that without writing single line > of code; > > > Instrumenting and coding the application in Tapestry is then trivial. > > > > > > John Coleman wrote: yes, I agree, and there has > been many mentions here, of a need for tools to > crank out Tapestry apps' > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geoff Hopson" > To: "Tapestry users" > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:40 AM > Subject: Re: [OT] OMG! A dynamic div component in JSF > > > The authro responds... > > http://www.it-eye.nl/weblog/2006/04/26/jsf-productivity/ > > > > On 25/04/06, Geoff Longman wrote: > > > > in Tapestry: > > > > > > > > > > > In JSF: > > > > http://www.it-eye.nl/weblog/2006/04/25/creating-a-jsf-div-component/ > > > > Yikes! > > > > Geoff > > > > -- > > The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net > > Blog: http://jroller.com/page/glongman > > Other interests: http://www.squidoo.com/spaceelevator/ > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Konstantin Ignatyev > > > > > PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million > tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical > rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to > one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 > tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000 > > Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a > Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State > University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206) ........................................ Steve Motola [EMAIL PROTECTED] (310) 422-5521 The Lab, LLC http://www.thelabllc.com Content is for intended recipient only. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Konstantin Ignatyev PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000 Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
