"Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging" tagging@openstreetmap.org – 6. November 2022 00:24
> 1) there was no consensus even among people who voted in that old proposal And what do you say to the result of 41 : 9 ? That is not a "consensus"? Then why is healtcare also considered approved? Ah well, maybe because it is an approved proposal and therefore the "consensus" for OSM. We can just throw away the approved status if it no longer has any effect. And it is just above "defacto" in the hierarchy. > 3) proposal process is useful to get review of proposal and thorough > nitpicking and criticism, and to make people aware about some concept. > It can be sort of useful to gauge support for some ideas. It is not so > useful at forcing people to do stuff. Hell what? That is far and away from reality. You misunderstand the power of the process, don't you? 95% (probably 99%) of the users do not participate in these votes, but use exactly the "guidelines" that we have documented here in the wiki. That should not be denied. And if a tag is sorted as "deprecated", that is clearly a sign for editors etc. that something else should be implemented. Here, too, your perception clearly misses the reality of how different developers think and act.... > 4) even if double tagging is unacceptable (I disagree), then this > proposal failed to explain why amenity=hospital rather > healthcare=hospital is being deprecated Of course that is clear. But apparently you want Proposals and thus Approved Tags to have no meaning any more. Because it is simple. amenity=hospital has been replaced by healthcare=hospital in the 2010 proposal. That is approved. That is also not something that is questioned anywhere here. So this approved tagging is preferred to non-approved tagging. Quite simply. > 5) "This, by the way, is one reason why certain companies refuse to use > OSM data." > 5a) [citation needed] it will make some programmers grumble a bit at most Sorry, but I can only give you this anecdotal knowledge from my experience, because business emails and conversations are unfortunately subject to secrecy. > 5b) OSM data model is not unusually bad compared to many other curious > or insane stuff in geoinformatics, geodatabases, databases, programming > in general.Compared to some stuff I have seen it is working remarkably > well. > 5c) even if that claim is true, so what? Now that's laughable. Just because things are going badly elsewhere doesn't mean things are going well here? If that's the claim, then we're really lost. I deal massively with users who are held back by the complexity. And yes, the point is that the tagging is often not clear. And yes, I am currently working on projects where I bring the healthcare sector closer to such open data. But if these don't have any effects, you might end up having to resort to proprietary solutions after all. Because an end user can no longer explain why he suddenly has to use 5 tags instead of one to express the same thing. (Caution: exaggeration) This is how you scare people away from this project! I also read in chats etc. from people who no longer want to participate in the improvement here because "that's no problem for a programmer". The fact that this somehow sucks for all users, but x people don't care, but you could actually make it easier for everyone, doesn't count for these x people. > 6) proposal vote getting results you dislike is not a valid reason to > deprecate proposal process The voting is not the decisive factor here. It's the rationale. Because it concludes for me that the decisions of proposals and corresponding votes are worth nothing here. They are not even considered a valid reason for a tagging commitment in front of you and others. So in the end I don't see any voting necessary for a proposal anymore. What should be voted on? At the end of the day, you can see how people feel about it in the comments. Or they don't care about the whole issue. So again: Whether you want to admit it or not: Proposal results clearly have an effect by "collecting a few opinions", but if this effect is not desired, it is the wrong system to approach such a topic.
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