If we take the key "place=*", all the values are only related to toponym : place=city/town/village/neighbourhood/locality/... They all are just the name of a location of some type (either defined by population or other aspect like an ocean/sea/...). So the place=square tag seems to be the only one that both indicate a location with a name (or not) and a feature. If we were only using place=square to indicate the name of a location categorized as a "square", then, maybe we do need another tag just to describe what the open area is... (man_made=square for example) ? And by using place=square only for naming a location, it can probably be on a polygon with other tag without problem (it is just indicating the toponym and the area covered - as it can be useful for routing), or on a node (like we do for other place=* tag).
Regards, Lionel Le mar. 24 mars 2020 à 13:13, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com> a écrit : > Am Di., 24. März 2020 um 03:33 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg < > joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > >> > Place=square was defined until 3 days ago as “a >> > named square” and “a town or village square which is an open space >> common in >> > urban centres, typically crossed by streets but can also be a pedestrian >> > area or more rarely green areas.” >> > >> > I am perfectly fine with this documented definition >> >> But the first part wasn't a definition. "A named square" is not a >> defintion at all, since the word "square" is undefined. > > > > is it? The English wikipedia has an article "Town square" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_square and tries to give a definition > (although the article is in bad shape and also has a warning that the > affirmations are not backed by citations, and it links to articles in other > languages which have different definitions, and which may be partial, due > to these other languages having several similar concepts). Also the article > states that "Other names for *town square* are *civic center > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_center>*, *city square*, *urban > square*, *market square <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_square>*, > *public > square*, *piazza <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza>*, *plaza > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza>*, and *town green*." but these are > not all 1:1 synonymous. > > Oxfordlearnersdictionary also has a definition: " [countable] an open > area in a town, usually with four sides, surrounded by buildings" > > We did not so far define the words "street" or "road". It is taken as > granted in the highway tag definitions that you know what it is. > > > >> If this means >> "a feature that includes the word "square" in the name" as the page >> suggested back in 2015-2016 this is even worse, since it is completely >> culturally determined. I would be justified to tag all "alun-alun" >> feature as squares, even those that are 100% soccer pitch now, and >> those function as a walled palace garden. >> > > > whether and how many of all objects with "square" (and similar) in the > name are actually the kind of object we are tagging with place=square will > likely depend on the culture and language. If this works for Italy with all > (or almost) piazza, piazzale, piazzetta, largo, campo, it does not imply it > works in Indonesia as well. > > > >> The first second definition was a little better: " an open space >> common in urban centres..." >> > > > yes, but it implies a certain kind of urbanism, in particular how centers > and peripherical areas look like, and I believe it is not universally > applicable (if it is intended to exclude squares in the outskirts). > > > >> Though this could be used for a leisure=pitch or leisure=park or >> leisure=garden or an amenity=parking, or a fenced-off roundabout >> etc... >> > > > no, the place=square can hardly be the same area as a leisure=pitch or > leisure=park. You won't have the park cover the whole area and end at the > buildings, there'll be a way or street along the buildings. > > >> >> But then the second half of the definition offers several more >> possibilitiies: >> "typically crossed by streets" - That one is unclear, does it mean a >> street intersection/ road junction? Most mapped place=squares are NOT >> crossed by streets, it turns out. >> > > > it may depend how you define "street" and "crossed". I guess it includes > pedestrian streets, and crossed may also be seen as "at the borders". If > you read it like this, there won't be many examples that do not fit (can > you post one?). > > > >> >> "But can also be a pedestria area or more rarely green areas.” >> >> A highway=pedestrian area is certainly a type of open public space, so >> that is fine, and the most classic squares fit that definition. >> > > > although not all pedestrian areas are squares. It could also be a parking > (sadly). > > >> >> But what does "more rarely green areas" mean? Is a green area just a >> flat, mowed lawn, or can it be an elaborate garden with trees, knolls, >> ponds? Can it be a leisure=pitch? Can it be a park with trees, picnic >> areas? >> > > > I believe it refers to the surface. It the square must not necessarily be > a hardscape. > > > >> >> I don't think that is what was intended: generally a "square" seems to >> be designed to be used for events or for people to congregate, at >> least historically, so if it is green, it is just grass, not trees, >> flowers, shrubs, gardens, water features, etc, else it's a park or >> garden. >> > > > It may have changed the purpose, but still functionally, architectonically > be a square. I agree with the notion that squares are made to stay, while > streets are made to walk/drive. There mustn't be "events", and many of them > are made to make a building stand out more (e.g. a square in front of a > castle or church). > > > >> >> That's whey the prior definition is inadequate: it is non-orthagonal, >> it can include many types of features, and is impossible to translate >> into different cultures. > > > > agreed, it wasn't a good definition before (it did not explain to someone > unfamiliar with the concept, when to apply the tag), but at least it didn't > exclude some kinds of squares by setting criterions that seem not > universally shared. > > Cheers > Martin > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >
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