> Every person on this mailing list participates in many of these kinds of discussions (...)
I have never seen one where there was someone suggesting a change to a tag and at least some of those negative bullet points didn't apply. > I think you should attempt to apply a little of that "acknowledging the other point of view" (...) I understand becoming frustrated with repetition and bad data. That frustration should be channeled into fixing the UX problem that leads to it, such as discoverability of import documents. I don't understand the habit of lashing out at new members and/or new ideas, given the goal of making a community-focused project. > That is often repeated and I guess most people can confirm that people act differently in person than on mailing lists. I've also communicated via direct emails and via slack. This is the only place where it gets toxic almost immediately. > if you go around telling everyone what a snake pit "the mailing lists" are then people will either not join them, or join them just waiting to see their expectations confirmed. I've personally talked to more people who avoid the mailing lists, particularly this one, than those who generally respond here. The sentiment is popular and it's not great for community building. > In general, our project isn't a top-down strictly managed project with a controlled decision-making process. This means that many things have to be discussed over and over, and the community generally doesn't speak with one voice. This is how it should theoretically work. I don't think it's how it actually works. It's driven by editing software and targeted mapping efforts, not mailing list discussions of which most mappers are unaware. But I don't mind discussing things over and over - that wasn't one of the negatives list. > Now you're going off on a tangent. Passwords are not required at all to use the mailing list. Serious technical issues with the mailing list isn't a tangent, the topic is mailing list vs. an editor's decisions. It undermines the credibility of this mailing list when its use involves terrible security practices. Registering for the mailing list, which is required for real-time participation, sends passwords in plain text. This is a massive security issue and the entire process feels unprofessional and dodgy. When I've recommended subscribing to others, I always remind them of this problem. > The current forum system works and has moderators and etiquette guidelines (this depends on each sub-forum, they are not global). Discoverability isn't much better than mailing lists IMHO. Discoverability is very bad all over the place for OSM - there is a desperate need for a "get involved" link on the landing page that orients the community. But discoverability is far better for the forums than here, as they are crawled by search engines. Whenever I see someone suggest reviewing a discussion from 9 months ago, I'm reminded of Douglas Adams: "It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.'" Anywho, I think the length of my replies have distracted from my point: what is the goal of this mailing list and how do these threads serve it, given these behaviors? Surely there is a better way to collaborate. On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 4:39 PM Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> wrote: > Hi, > > On 5/23/19 21:58, Nick Bolten wrote: > > OSM needs an alternative for community tagging discussions outside of > > these mailing lists. > > It might; that doesn't invalidate points made on these mailing lists > though! > > > # My experiences with OSMers in other contexts: > > - Very friendly, all focused on making maps better, highly motivated to > > donate their time to help others via the map. > > - Disagreements are pleasant. Both sides acknowledge the other point of > > view and usually come around to a compromise. > > - There is interest in knowing more: lots of questions back and forth. > > - Objections are qualified and polite. > > - 10s-100s of people giving feedback on a single idea. > > Every person on this mailing list participates in many of these kinds of > discussions, in addition to being on the mailing list (just in case you > were thinking there were two different kinds of people, the friendly > people and the mailing list people; this is not the case). > > > When I was mentoring a group of students a few years ago, several were > > offended by the condescending and insulting responses they received on > > this mailing list, all because they suggested making a coherent way of > > combining existing tags into a pedestrian schema and doing a > > carefully-vetted import. > > I think you should attempt to apply a little of that "acknowledging the > other point of view" that you lauded above to such situations. Every day > brings new broken imports to OpenStreetMap. All of them are done with > the best intentions. Very many of them are done by people with little > prior experience. Therefore, when a group of students pops up and > suggests to do an import, this already sets some alarm bells ringing > (carefully vetted or not). Your project is to be applauded to even come > here - as you rightly say, the lists are not necessarily easy to > discover and a large percentage of problematic imports have never been > discussed with anyone before they are attempted. > > Everyone on this mailing list has likely seen many buggy imports. > Imagine being at a party and someone steps on your shoe. They say sorry, > you say no problem. Five minutes later another person steps on your > shoe. Again, a friendly sorry, a friendly no problem. By the time the > 10th person steps on your shoe you might shout out "WHAT THE FUCK IS > WRONG WITH THIS PARTY" even if that person is totally innocent. It's not > right, it's not polite, but it is somewhat understandable. > > > I think > > it's probably a good thing that it's so hard to even know that there is > > a mailing list, as users have a negative experience. > > That is often repeated and I guess most people can confirm that people > act differently in person than on mailing lists. However, many mailing > lists in OSM are vibrant meeting places for many more than 8 community > members, and spreading negative opinions about mailing lists reinforces > problems instead of solving them - if you go around telling everyone > what a snake pit "the mailing lists" are then people will either not > join them, or join them just waiting to see their expectations confirmed. > > In general, our project isn't a top-down strictly managed project with a > controlled decision-making process. This means that many things have to > be discussed over and over, and the community generally doesn't speak > with one voice. But this also gives us some resilience; there's no one > "tag central command" that someone could take over and dictate what we > are to do. > > > - Terrible security practices. Passwords sent in plain text over email. > > No encryption. I was almost put off the mailing list entirely when I saw > > this. Completely unacceptable. > > Now you're going off on a tangent. Passwords are not required at all to > use the mailing list. Of course, email in general is not a secure medium > since you can easily impersonate others. Then again, if we judge the > merit of contributions by their content and not by who wrote them, > impersonating someone doesn't even give you much of an advantage. > > > Gripes aside, I have a suggestion: move these discussions to a real > > forum system, properly organized around regional/topic-specific/tagging > > discussions. It could be a revamped https://forum.openstreetmap.org/ or > > something fancier and slack-like (like riot chat). Have actual > > moderators and code of conduct. > > The current forum system works and has moderators and etiquette > guidelines (this depends on each sub-forum, they are not global). > Discoverability isn't much better than mailing lists IMHO. In my country > (Germany), OSMers are neatly split between forum and mailing list, most > using just one or just the other, some using both. Nothing wrong with > that IMHO; smaller groups form better bonds. > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >
_______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
