FYI: I've just created an issue upstream here:
[Greek diacritics and getting rid of the quotation mark? · Issue #9 ·
morphgnt/tischendorf](https://github.com/morphgnt/tischendorf/issues/9)
Best regards,
David
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On Sunday, March 16th, 2025 at 11:40 AM, Peter von Kaehne <ref...@gmx.net>
wrote:
> I do not think this is a reason for any angst and hand wringing. Correct it
> in our isn source and submit the correction to upstream.
>
> Sent from [Outlook for iOS](https://aka.ms/o0ukef)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: sword-devel <sword-devel-boun...@crosswire.org> on behalf of David
> Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2025 8:08 am
> To: SWORD Developers' Collaboration Forum <sword-devel@crosswire.org>
> Subject: Re: [sword-devel] Module TischMorph & other Ancient Greek modules -
> getting rid of the quotation mark?
>
> Indeed, getting all the upstream Greek NT sources fixed would be ideal, but
> this "category mistake" has become so entrenched since before the advent of
> computers, I suspect we'd have an uphill struggle.
>
> It's all the more frustrating when one realizes that there are only 21
> distinct words in a Greek NT where this inappropriate Unicode character was
> used! That these fairly short words are quite common is what accounts for the
> overall total of 1219.
>
> That figure was calculated after I used BabelPad Tools to perform a Word
> Frequency analysis both before and after replacing each U+2019 by U+0315 as
> part of my experiment.
>
> To illustrate this, I have attached the resulting diff file.
>
> NB. Because U+2019 is not a "word character", it's not present in the before
> analysis.
>
> Refer also to the transcript of the second part of my AI chat with Leo, as
> per my email sent late last night.
>
> How can we persuade the wider community of NT Scholarship and Textual
> Criticism to fix this long-standing category mistake?
>
> Best regards,
>
> David
>
> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://pr.tn/ref/SWXT9A5YZ67G) secure email.
>
> On Sunday, March 16th, 2025 at 12:26 AM, Greg Hellings
> <greg.helli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It sounds like the text is using the wrong character. Would it not be better
>> to go back to the source text and fix it there? That would benefit everyone
>> who consumes that text, and not just people looking at the appearance of the
>> text through a Sword client with sufficiently up-to-date filters.
>>
>> Why is the text using an apostrophe character in the first place, rather
>> than the appropriate accent character?
>>
>> --Greg
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:46 PM David Haslam <dfh...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Further to my message sent to the modules team, I have suggestion for SWORD
>>> developers.
>>>
>>> Modify how GlobalOptionFilter=UTF8GreekAccents works with respect to U+2019.
>>>
>>> Currently the filter doesn't care how this codepoint is being used
>>> semantically.
>>>
>>> We could make a practical change as follows:
>>>
>>> Rule: Do not hide U+2019 if the preceding character is not a Greek letter.
>>>
>>> However, that would not be sufficient to cover all the cases in the
>>> StatResGNT module currently in CrossWire Beta.
>>>
>>> Here's one that's better:
>>>
>>> Rule: Do not hide U+2019 if the preceding character is not a word character.
>>>
>>> With this in operation, the source text would not need to be changed in
>>> those places where the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK is immediately after a
>>> punctuation mark.
>>>
>>> Then what about the remaining places where it is immediately after a Greek
>>> letter?
>>>
>>> A simple kludge for an improved source text would be to insert a zero width
>>> space or a zero width non joiner. Doing so would protect the quotation mark
>>> from being treated contrarily as a Greek diacritic when its purpose is
>>> simply to close a quotation.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://pr.tn/ref/SWXT9A5YZ67G) secure email.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, March 15th, 2025 at 6:02 PM, David Haslam
>>> <dfh...@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thinking about the teleological conflict caused by using U+2019 RIGHT
>>>> SINGLE QUOTATION MARK as a Greek Diacritic,
>>>> I wish to suggest that in modules where this was the case, that we might
>>>> replace all U+2019 by U+0315 COMBINING COMMA ABOVE RIGHT.
>>>>
>>>> This displays very similarly, viz
>>>>
>>>> - U+2019 παρ’
>>>> - U+0315 παρ̕
>>>>
>>>> NB. The latter was not already used anywhere in the TischMorph module.
>>>>
>>>> The advantage would be that if we did this to all the Ancient Greek
>>>> modules and to any other module that makes the same contrary use of U+2019,
>>>> then eventually, we might update the SWORD engine such that it no longer
>>>> hides it with GlobalOptionFilter=UTF8GreekAccents.
>>>>
>>>> This would free up U+2019 for it's proper use as a RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION
>>>> MARK to end speech begun with U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK.We have
>>>> just encountered this use in Beta module StatResGNT which contains
>>>> sections of text marked with both DOUBLE and SINGLE QUOTATION marks.
>>>>
>>>> I propose therefore that we perform an experiment, by implementing my
>>>> suggestion first in module TischMorph, last updated 2012-01-09.
>>>> This has 1218 instances of U+2019 and in each case, it's used contrarily
>>>> as a Greek Diacritic.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a counted list of the Greek letters that are followed by a U+2019.
>>>>
>>>>> 0031 δ’
>>>>> 0109 θ’
>>>>> 0232 τ’
>>>>> 0287 π’
>>>>> 0221 λ’
>>>>> 0135 φ’
>>>>> 0059 ρ’
>>>>> 0144 ι’
>>>>
>>>> This is how they would look if the proposed replacements were made:
>>>>
>>>>> 0031 δ̕
>>>>> 0109 θ̕
>>>>> 0232 τ̕
>>>>> 0287 π̕
>>>>> 0221 λ̕
>>>>> 0135 φ̕
>>>>> 0059 ρ̕
>>>>> 0144 ι̕
>>>>
>>>> NB. The upstream source for this module is no longer found at
>>>> http://morphgnt.org/
>>>> The URL now just displays a 404 message saying "There isn't a GitHub Pages
>>>> site here."
>>>> If we can no longer find where it may have moved, we might have to use a
>>>> "round trip" of mod2imp and imp2vs to rebuild the module with my suggested
>>>> change.
>>>>
>>>> If my suggestion has any merit, we should also first discuss it with NT
>>>> scholars such as our friends at STEP Bible and their friends at Tyndale
>>>> House.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://pr.tn/ref/SWXT9A5YZ67G) secure email.
>>>
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