Hi, I'm running Xiphos 4.1 under flatpak. There was a bit of fiddling to get Xiphos to save settings but this was overcome by setting a flatpak option. I'm not sure who generated the flatpak version, but it's still on 4.1 as of yesterday. Regards, Gary On Wed, 2020-05-13 at 15:54 -0700, Troy A. Griffitts wrote: > Has anyone tried any of the packaging tools based on containers, > like flatpak? > > > > On 5/13/20 3:30 PM, Michael H wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Ubuntu, > > I've gone to PPA version for LibreOffice... which is a > > newer > > version than was released under Ubuntu 18 LTS. However, > > it's > > not as easy to go to PPA for sword apps because there are > > more > > interactions with dependencies between > > the sword engine, gnome, etc. > > > > > > > > Back in 2002 to 04 time frame: I was trying to build for > > palmOS, and ran into this dependencies won't line up, i > > need > > multiple minor revisions of the same thing to make > > everything > > work. I and ended up getting somebody to > > "staticly compile" > > apps for me on the linux side, so my work on palm > > wouldn't be > > falling into dependency gap. It increases the size of the > > package, but no longer depends on anything outside the > > package. In today's environment of massive amounts of RAM > > and > > disk space, i don't see why any 'application' on linux > > doesn't > > do this... pulling in the libraries and having an extra > > copy > > of them makes them far more stable, and it makes them run > > quicker. It does consume more memory and disk space, but > > the > > days when there was any risk of running out of ram or > > disk > > space on desktops are into double digits gone by. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:39 > > PM Greg Hellings <greg.helli...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at > > > 4:28 PM Tom Sullivan <i...@beforgiven.info> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The repositories do not contain the latest > > > > versions. For > > > > example, the > > > > > > > > Debian Buster repository presents Xiphos 4.1, > > > > not the > > > > latest 4.2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) This is the benefit and curse of Debian. It > > > refuses to let new versions of packages in that > > > are not > > > bugfix and ONLY bugfix. Nothing with new features > > > at all > > > is allowed into a stable/released version of > > > Debian. > > > It's a benefit to users who need the stability > > > (read: > > > server administrators and people who develop > > > software > > > for running on those stable versions of Debian) > > > but it's > > > a terrible experience for end users. If you're > > > using > > > Debian anything (other than sid, their testing > > > release) > > > for an end-user desktop, then you're going to > > > have a bad > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) This is, again, an issue with the distro, and > > > not > > > with Crosswire or Xiphos. There is nothing we can > > > do to > > > affect upstream's release cadence and rules. Now, > > > if the > > > Xiphos project had enough developer manpower to > > > maintain > > > patches to the 4.1 series as well as continue > > > development towards 4.2, then maybe we'd be able > > > to get > > > a 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 into old Debian versions. > > > That's what > > > large projects do (like Debian itself), but we > > > just > > > don't have the developer bandwidth to maintain > > > multiple > > > branches on any of our software. But none of our > > > software is intended for server, long-lived > > > boxes, > > > either. It's all end user focused stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is how I ended up reporting bugs that had > > > > been > > > > fixed. It is a wide > > > > > > > > problem; I mention Xiphos, not as a bad > > > > example, but > > > > because I happened > > > > > > > > to remember the version numbers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same would be true of Sword. 1.8.1 is not just > > > a > > > bugfix release of the 1.8 series. It introduced > > > some > > > minor new functionality so, technically, it would > > > not > > > have been permitted into the Debian repository if > > > anyone > > > was checking closely. This is just how we handle > > > our > > > software, again, because we lack the manpower to > > > keep > > > multiple development streams flowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would, again, submit that your issue is actually > > > with your chosen distribution. Its documentation > > > appears > > > to be inadequate, and it's lulled you into using > > > a > > > distribution that's not targeting your use case. > > > You > > > might try running Fedora (or Ubuntu and not > > > staying on > > > LTS versions) which have much more generous > > > update > > > policies. I can tell you, for instance, that > > > Xiphos > > > compiles very nicely on current Fedora versions > > > with a > > > few very simple commands. I happen to know this > > > because > > > I maintain both our Xiphos CI process and the > > > packages > > > in the repositories for Xiphos. Now, I haven't > > > updated > > > the packages to 4.2.1 yet, for Xiphos, because I > > > was > > > busy helping with the CI and the release of > > > 4.2.1, but > > > due to the CI I know that compiling for Fedora 32 > > > will > > > be a breeze. > > > > > > > > > > > > Compiling for Ubuntu is a little more of a > > > challenge, > > > because of the missing dependencies, but Caleb is > > > working on create a dedicated repository on > > > Ubuntu's > > > infrastructure just for that. And Caleb, myself, > > > Dom, > > > and Karl are all working to resolve those issues > > > so > > > that, in the future, a 4.3 or 4.4 will be able to > > > make > > > it back into the Debian repos and eventually into > > > the > > > Ubuntu "universe" repositories. > > > > > > > > > > > > So maybe give us a shot, still, on a distro that's > > > meant for you? :) > > > > > > > > > > > > --Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Sullivan > > > > > > > > i...@beforgiven.info > > > > > > > > FAX: 815-301-2835 > > > > > > > > --------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/13/20 5:21 PM, Greg Hellings wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:57 PM Tom Sullivan > > > > <i...@beforgiven.info > > > > > > > > > <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Y'all: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, I recognize that as a writer and > > > > long > > > > retired developer and > > > > > > > > > engineer (and thus obsolete) that in > > > > terms of > > > > technical issues, I am > > > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > out of my league with all you C++ > > > > programmers > > > > and experts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second, I want to thank all of you for > > > > your > > > > hard work. Compared to what > > > > > > > > > is available for Windows and Mac users, > > > > available Bible software and > > > > > > > > > tools are sparse. You work as volunteers > > > > and on > > > > a shoestring budget. > > > > > > > > > Very many thanks. Without your work, I > > > > would be > > > > back to books and paper > > > > > > > > > without being able to search, compare > > > > versions, > > > > etc., with such ease. > > > > > > > > > Linux users are definitely an under > > > > served > > > > people group and you fill a > > > > > > > > > big need. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of you may remember my SwordHammer > > > > project. Frankly, it has > > > > > > > > > crashed > > > > > > > > > and burned. Due to an architecture > > > > decision > > > > that was not the best, it > > > > > > > > > became unwieldy. And now, due to changes > > > > in my > > > > life, I cannot continue, > > > > > > > > > though I had started on a new > > > > architecture. > > > > This has two consequences: > > > > > > > > > 1. There probably is not any longer > > > > reason to > > > > continue on this list > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > longer. > > > > > > > > > 2. I got an appreciation for the huge > > > > problem > > > > caused by incompatible > > > > > > > > > Linux distros. For example, I did not > > > > know that > > > > Ubuntu users were > > > > > > > > > limited to sudo, instead of being able to > > > > run > > > > as root. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many of my previous interactions with > > > > this list > > > > have been caused by my > > > > > > > > > use of obsolete versions. I cannot help > > > > it. I > > > > seem only able to install > > > > > > > > > packages from the Debian repository (or > > > > download a *.deb suitable for > > > > > > > > > Debian Buster and install). I recently > > > > tried to > > > > compile and install > > > > > > > > > Sword (which worked), BibleTime (which > > > > crashed), and Xiphos (which I > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > not able to compile by various tries.) > > > > There > > > > are errors in the docs, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > discrepancies between docs, and who knows > > > > what.) I failed. So I am > > > > > > > > > stuck, and that is not mainly your fault. > > > > The > > > > problem is that there is > > > > > > > > > no Linux-wide packaging or installation > > > > system. > > > > It may or may not be > > > > > > > > > technically feasible, I don't know). When > > > > things go wrong, I often have > > > > > > > > > no idea how to fix them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You really shouldn't have to download any > > > > files. > > > > You should only have to > > > > > > > > > run "sudo apt update && sudo apt install > > > > bibletime". Or, if you want to > > > > > > > > > compile BibleTime from source but use the > > > > packaged > > > > Sword library, "sudo > > > > > > > > > apt install libsword-dev". Currently, Xiphos > > > > is not > > > > compatible with > > > > > > > > > Debian/Ubuntu because it depends on ancient > > > > libraries that are not > > > > > > > > > available in those distributions anymore. > > > > However, > > > > packagers for those > > > > > > > > > distros, until recently, were maintaining a > > > > heavily > > > > patched version of > > > > > > > > > Xiphos that was avilable in their > > > > repositories. All > > > > that was needed was > > > > > > > > > "sudo apt install xiphos". No downloading or > > > > building or manually > > > > > > > > > finding dependencies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I have two suggestions here, but let > > > > me > > > > start with an analogy. > > > > > > > > > When I > > > > > > > > > have to buy a new vehicle, my concern is > > > > not if > > > > the seat is nice and > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > radio works and the vanity light works. I > > > > want > > > > it to safely take me > > > > > > > > > where I want to go. If there is a rip in > > > > the > > > > seat or dents in the body > > > > > > > > > or some rust or something, I can live > > > > with > > > > that. So, I am willing to > > > > > > > > > live with what is in the repositories and > > > > not > > > > waste everybody else's > > > > > > > > > time with bug reports. I apologize for > > > > doing > > > > that. It was not > > > > > > > > > intentional, but that is what happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggestion 1: Clean up documentation. > > > > Prime > > > > exhibit: May Crosswire page > > > > > > > > > refers to Sword 1.8.0 with link for > > > > months with > > > > no mention of 1.8.1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure where you're looking. This is > > > > the > > > > download page for Sword > > > > > > > > > source > > > > http://crosswire.org/sword/develop/index.jsp > > > > and it mentions > > > > > > > > > 1.8.1 without incident. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suggestion 2: For the more popular > > > > distros, > > > > provide ready-to-go > > > > > > > > > packages, .deb files (or equivalent, such > > > > as > > > > .rpm) for installs and > > > > > > > > > updates, even if they do not hit the > > > > repositories until later. This > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > get users access who are not experts. In > > > > my > > > > opinion, for what it is > > > > > > > > > worth, this is at least as important as > > > > new > > > > features. Also allow users > > > > > > > > > an option to automatically check for > > > > updates > > > > and tell where to get a > > > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > package. I understand that this takes > > > > time and > > > > work. I would rather get > > > > > > > > > some new features and bug fixes, and be > > > > able to > > > > get and use them, than > > > > > > > > > new features I will never see because I > > > > can't > > > > compile or something. I > > > > > > > > > rather think that others are also in my > > > > position as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is usually a Very Bad Idea for upstream > > > > projects. Every distro has > > > > > > > > > its own quirks, foibles, and differences. For > > > > instance, gtkhtml is still > > > > > > > > > avilable on Fedora but not on Ubuntu or > > > > Debian. As > > > > such, Xiphos can be > > > > > > > > > compiled rather readily on Fedora but not on > > > > Debian/Ubuntu without heavy > > > > > > > > > patching of the source to disable the editor > > > > features. Those are details > > > > > > > > > already managed by the packagers of those > > > > distributions and are quite a > > > > > > > > > nightmare for every upstream project to keep > > > > track > > > > of. Nor is it easy to > > > > > > > > > keep separate the very tiny tweaks that make > > > > up the > > > > Debian -> Ubuntu -> > > > > > > > > > Mint/Pop/etc food chain where downstream > > > > distributions consume upstream > > > > > > > > > packages in some manner. Providing a build is > > > > not > > > > something upstream > > > > > > > > > projects like Sword ought to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should our docs be updated so that they work > > > > in > > > > those distros, where > > > > > > > > > possible? Yes. But it sounds like most of > > > > your > > > > difficulty was with the > > > > > > > > > package manager on the Debian (or Ubuntu?) > > > > system > > > > you were using. For an > > > > > > > > > end user, you should have just "sudo apt > > > > install > > > > <my pacage>" and been > > > > > > > > > able to get along without trouble. The fact > > > > you > > > > weren't was a failure on > > > > > > > > > the part of the distribution. Not on Sword, > > > > Crosswire, BibleTime, or > > > > > > > > > Xiphos. I have no idea what your ultimate > > > > goal is, > > > > though, so I can't > > > > > > > > > give you more particular details than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For what it is worth, and sorry it is so > > > > long. > > > > Sorry again for wasting > > > > > > > > > all your time in the past. God bless you > > > > and > > > > keep up all the good work. > > > > > > > > > It is not perfect, but it is definitely > > > > good > > > > and I use your stuff many > > > > > > > > > hours a week and every day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > Tom Sullivan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Tom Sullivan > > > > > > > > > i...@beforgiven.info > > > > > > > > > FAX: 815-301-2835 > > > > > > > > > --------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > sword-devel mailing list: > > > > sword-devel@crosswire.org > > > > > > > > > <mailto:sword-devel@crosswire.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > > > > > > > > > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your > > > > settings at above page > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________ > > > > > > > > > This email has been scanned by the Symantec > > > > Email > > > > Security.cloud service. > > > > > > > > > For more information please visit > > > > http://www.symanteccloud.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > sword-devel mailing list: > > > > sword-devel@crosswire.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > > > > > > > > > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your > > > > settings at > > > > above page > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > sword-devel mailing list: > > > > sword-devel@crosswire.org > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > > > > > > > > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your > > > > settings at > > > > above page > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > > > > > > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > > > > > > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at > > > above page > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________sword-devel > > mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > > > > > _______________________________________________sword-devel mailing > list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
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