Has anyone tried any of the packaging tools based on containers, like flatpak?
On 5/13/20 3:30 PM, Michael H wrote: > On Ubuntu, I've gone to PPA version for LibreOffice... which is a > newer version than was released under Ubuntu 18 LTS. However, it's not > as easy to go to PPA for sword apps because there are more > interactions with dependencies between the sword engine, gnome, etc. > > Back in 2002 to 04 time frame: I was trying to build for palmOS, and > ran into this dependencies won't line up, i need multiple minor > revisions of the same thing to make everything work. I and ended up > getting somebody to "staticly compile" apps for me on the linux side, > so my work on palm wouldn't be falling into dependency gap. It > increases the size of the package, but no longer depends on anything > outside the package. In today's environment of massive amounts of RAM > and disk space, i don't see why any 'application' on linux doesn't do > this... pulling in the libraries and having an extra copy of them > makes them far more stable, and it makes them run quicker. It does > consume more memory and disk space, but the days when there was any > risk of running out of ram or disk space on desktops are into double > digits gone by. > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:39 PM Greg Hellings <greg.helli...@gmail.com > <mailto:greg.helli...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:28 PM Tom Sullivan <i...@beforgiven.info > <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info>> wrote: > > Greg: > > The repositories do not contain the latest versions. For > example, the > Debian Buster repository presents Xiphos 4.1, not the latest 4.2. > > > 1) This is the benefit and curse of Debian. It refuses to let new > versions of packages in that are not bugfix and ONLY bugfix. > Nothing with new features at all is allowed into a stable/released > version of Debian. It's a benefit to users who need the stability > (read: server administrators and people who develop software for > running on those stable versions of Debian) but it's a terrible > experience for end users. If you're using Debian anything (other > than sid, their testing release) for an end-user desktop, then > you're going to have a bad experience. > > 2) This is, again, an issue with the distro, and not with > Crosswire or Xiphos. There is nothing we can do to affect > upstream's release cadence and rules. Now, if the Xiphos project > had enough developer manpower to maintain patches to the 4.1 > series as well as continue development towards 4.2, then maybe > we'd be able to get a 4.1.1 and 4.1.2 into old Debian versions. > That's what large projects do (like Debian itself), but we just > don't have the developer bandwidth to maintain multiple branches > on any of our software. But none of our software is intended for > server, long-lived boxes, either. It's all end user focused stuff. > > > That is how I ended up reporting bugs that had been fixed. It > is a wide > problem; I mention Xiphos, not as a bad example, but because I > happened > to remember the version numbers. > > > The same would be true of Sword. 1.8.1 is not just a bugfix > release of the 1.8 series. It introduced some minor new > functionality so, technically, it would not have been permitted > into the Debian repository if anyone was checking closely. This is > just how we handle our software, again, because we lack the > manpower to keep multiple development streams flowing. > > I would, again, submit that your issue is actually with your > chosen distribution. Its documentation appears to be inadequate, > and it's lulled you into using a distribution that's not targeting > your use case. You might try running Fedora (or Ubuntu and not > staying on LTS versions) which have much more generous update > policies. I can tell you, for instance, that Xiphos compiles very > nicely on current Fedora versions with a few very simple commands. > I happen to know this because I maintain both our Xiphos CI > process and the packages in the repositories for Xiphos. Now, I > haven't updated the packages to 4.2.1 yet, for Xiphos, because I > was busy helping with the CI and the release of 4.2.1, but due to > the CI I know that compiling for Fedora 32 will be a breeze. > > Compiling for Ubuntu is a little more of a challenge, because of > the missing dependencies, but Caleb is working on create a > dedicated repository on Ubuntu's infrastructure just for that. And > Caleb, myself, Dom, and Karl are all working to resolve those > issues so that, in the future, a 4.3 or 4.4 will be able to make > it back into the Debian repos and eventually into the Ubuntu > "universe" repositories. > > So maybe give us a shot, still, on a distro that's meant for you? :) > > --Greg > > > Tom > > Tom Sullivan > i...@beforgiven.info > FAX: 815-301-2835 > --------------------- > > On 5/13/20 5:21 PM, Greg Hellings wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:57 PM Tom Sullivan > <i...@beforgiven.info <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info> > > <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info <mailto:i...@beforgiven.info>>> > wrote: > > > > Y'all: > > > > First, I recognize that as a writer and long retired > developer and > > engineer (and thus obsolete) that in terms of technical > issues, I am > > way > > out of my league with all you C++ programmers and experts. > > > > Second, I want to thank all of you for your hard work. > Compared to what > > is available for Windows and Mac users, available Bible > software and > > tools are sparse. You work as volunteers and on a > shoestring budget. > > Very many thanks. Without your work, I would be back to > books and paper > > without being able to search, compare versions, etc., > with such ease. > > Linux users are definitely an under served people group > and you fill a > > big need. > > > > Some of you may remember my SwordHammer project. > Frankly, it has > > crashed > > and burned. Due to an architecture decision that was not > the best, it > > became unwieldy. And now, due to changes in my life, I > cannot continue, > > though I had started on a new architecture. This has two > consequences: > > 1. There probably is not any longer reason to continue > on this list > > much > > longer. > > 2. I got an appreciation for the huge problem caused by > incompatible > > Linux distros. For example, I did not know that Ubuntu > users were > > limited to sudo, instead of being able to run as root. > > > > Many of my previous interactions with this list have > been caused by my > > use of obsolete versions. I cannot help it. I seem only > able to install > > packages from the Debian repository (or download a *.deb > suitable for > > Debian Buster and install). I recently tried to compile > and install > > Sword (which worked), BibleTime (which crashed), and > Xiphos (which I > > was > > not able to compile by various tries.) There are errors > in the docs, > > and > > discrepancies between docs, and who knows what.) I > failed. So I am > > stuck, and that is not mainly your fault. The problem is > that there is > > no Linux-wide packaging or installation system. It may > or may not be > > technically feasible, I don't know). When things go > wrong, I often have > > no idea how to fix them. > > > > > > You really shouldn't have to download any files. You should > only have to > > run "sudo apt update && sudo apt install bibletime". Or, if > you want to > > compile BibleTime from source but use the packaged Sword > library, "sudo > > apt install libsword-dev". Currently, Xiphos is not > compatible with > > Debian/Ubuntu because it depends on ancient libraries that > are not > > available in those distributions anymore. However, packagers > for those > > distros, until recently, were maintaining a heavily patched > version of > > Xiphos that was avilable in their repositories. All that was > needed was > > "sudo apt install xiphos". No downloading or building or > manually > > finding dependencies. > > > > > > So I have two suggestions here, but let me start with an > analogy. > > When I > > have to buy a new vehicle, my concern is not if the seat > is nice and > > the > > radio works and the vanity light works. I want it to > safely take me > > where I want to go. If there is a rip in the seat or > dents in the body > > or some rust or something, I can live with that. So, I > am willing to > > live with what is in the repositories and not waste > everybody else's > > time with bug reports. I apologize for doing that. It > was not > > intentional, but that is what happened. > > > > Suggestion 1: Clean up documentation. Prime exhibit: May > Crosswire page > > refers to Sword 1.8.0 with link for months with no > mention of 1.8.1. > > > > > > I'm not sure where you're looking. This is the download page > for Sword > > source http://crosswire.org/sword/develop/index.jsp and it > mentions > > 1.8.1 without incident. > > > > > > Suggestion 2: For the more popular distros, provide > ready-to-go > > packages, .deb files (or equivalent, such as .rpm) for > installs and > > updates, even if they do not hit the repositories until > later. This > > will > > get users access who are not experts. In my opinion, for > what it is > > worth, this is at least as important as new features. > Also allow users > > an option to automatically check for updates and tell > where to get a > > new > > package. I understand that this takes time and work. I > would rather get > > some new features and bug fixes, and be able to get and > use them, than > > new features I will never see because I can't compile or > something. I > > rather think that others are also in my position as well. > > > > > > This is usually a Very Bad Idea for upstream projects. Every > distro has > > its own quirks, foibles, and differences. For instance, > gtkhtml is still > > avilable on Fedora but not on Ubuntu or Debian. As such, > Xiphos can be > > compiled rather readily on Fedora but not on Debian/Ubuntu > without heavy > > patching of the source to disable the editor features. Those > are details > > already managed by the packagers of those distributions and > are quite a > > nightmare for every upstream project to keep track of. Nor > is it easy to > > keep separate the very tiny tweaks that make up the Debian > -> Ubuntu -> > > Mint/Pop/etc food chain where downstream distributions > consume upstream > > packages in some manner. Providing a build is not something > upstream > > projects like Sword ought to do. > > > > Should our docs be updated so that they work in those > distros, where > > possible? Yes. But it sounds like most of your difficulty > was with the > > package manager on the Debian (or Ubuntu?) system you were > using. For an > > end user, you should have just "sudo apt install <my > pacage>" and been > > able to get along without trouble. The fact you weren't was > a failure on > > the part of the distribution. Not on Sword, Crosswire, > BibleTime, or > > Xiphos. I have no idea what your ultimate goal is, though, > so I can't > > give you more particular details than that. > > > > --Greg > > > > > > For what it is worth, and sorry it is so long. Sorry > again for wasting > > all your time in the past. God bless you and keep up all > the good work. > > It is not perfect, but it is definitely good and I use > your stuff many > > hours a week and every day. > > > > Sincerely, > > Tom Sullivan > > > > -- > > Tom Sullivan > > i...@beforgiven.info > > FAX: 815-301-2835 > > --------------------- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > <mailto:sword-devel@crosswire.org> > > <mailto:sword-devel@crosswire.org > <mailto:sword-devel@crosswire.org>> > > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at > above page > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email > Security.cloud service. > > For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > <mailto:sword-devel@crosswire.org> > > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > <mailto:sword-devel@crosswire.org> > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > <mailto:sword-devel@crosswire.org> > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page > > > _______________________________________________ > sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org > http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel > Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
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