Troy, Karl:
(Karl:
[NASB]
Heading=On)
I am using Debian Buster (10) (stable). This is the current stable
version of Debian and is the one generally recommended. It is the
version those of us who have work to do use, rather than mess with a
buggy OS. (There is a more recent Debian version generally titled
testing, but it is not as reliable.)
I have mentioned my versions before. Others can comment on their current
status:
Diatheke: 4.7
Xiphos: 4.1.0
Sword (from osis2mod): 3431 (This should be current as I compiled for
the new version when it came out earlier.)
I understand that there is a new version of Xiphos, but Xiphos is not
the only program not showing Psalm titles. (I hope to see a Debian
package for Xiphos soon, if not when I get a chance, I can try to
compile, but that always has difficulties.)
I repeat here the results from Diatheke:
(I was given to understand that this is the gold standard for seeing if
the problem is in the module or Sword vs. front-ends.)
$ diatheke -b ESV2011 -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
Psalms 5:1: Give ear to my words, O Lord;
consider my groaning.
To the choirmaster: for the flutes. A Psalm of David.
Psalms 5:2: Give attention to the sound of my cry,
my King and my God,
for to you do I pray.
(ESV2011)
$ diatheke -b KJV -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
Psalms 5:1: Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David.
Psalms 5:2: Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for
unto thee will I pray.
(KJV)
$ diatheke -b NASB -f plain -k ps 5.1-2
Psalms 5:1:
Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my groaning.
Psalms 5:2:
Heed the sound of my cry for help, my King and my God, For to You I pray.
(NASB)
And I repeat here the *differences* in how front ends handle things:
BibleDesktop displays the canonical title in a different color than the
human title. This does not mean that I accuse any front-ends per-se.
BibleTime displays both the human and canonical the same.
Xiphos 4.1.0 displays titles for ESV2011, not NASB
Tom Sullivan
i...@beforgiven.info
FAX: 815-301-2835
---------------------
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On 5/8/20 12:30 PM, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:
Good morning!
So, lots of conversation. I've read it all and can't determine if there
is still a problem to be fixed.
First, it sounds like Tom is using an old version of software. Please
be sure you are using the latest version of software before pursuing
problems. It sounds like Karl is saying that the latest version of
Xiphos works. Is this correct?
SWORD has always attempted to leave canonical titles in the display,
even if headings are turned off. We may have had bugs over the years
causing this to not worked, but I hope it hasn't been so often as to
make anyone think this is how SWORD has "always" worked. I confirm that
asking for Psalm 5.1 without headings turned on still returns the
canonical title (and correctly strips out the non-canonical title) there.
"canonical" in OSIS for Bibles does indeed mean "what was originally in
the Bible." It does not not mean "was was originally in the NASB." It
is meant as a utility to differentiate editorial material from the
original work (=Bible; not NASB). OSIS canonical when encoding a Bible
mean what we all think canonical means. It is a statement about what
this edition claims is there in the original "Bible", however that
edition defines the term "Bible".
SWORD /should/ mark all canonical titles appropriately so they can be
rendered differently, if that is the desire. Checking the NASB, they
are rendered appropriately in an element with:
class="title psalm canonical"
So, is there any issue we need to address?
Troy
On 5/8/20 8:42 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
My reference to verse numbers was only to show that others also
considered the Psalm titles to be canonical.
Tom Sullivan
i...@beforgiven.info
FAX: 815-301-2835
---------------------
On 5/8/20 11:01 AM, David Haslam wrote:
The original Hebrew text had no “verse numbers”.
It’s anachronistic to assert that it did.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapters_and_verses_of_the_Bible?wprov=sfti1>
Modern printed editions of the MT have verse numbers “retrofitted”
simply for ease of use.
The Wikipedia article on Psalms is also instructive.
How Psalms are numbered and versified is quite a complex matter.
It’s just one of the factors we have to take account of under
Alternative Versification.
David
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:49, Tom Sullivan <i...@beforgiven.info
<mailto:i...@beforgiven.info>> wrote:
Y'all:
My Biblia Hebraica treats Psalm titles as the first verse, indicating
biblical canonacity and in line with Hebrew versification.
Note the following from OSIS doc, OSIS.pdf:
Appendix B.2.10 titles
The type attribute on the title element is used to allow special
rendering of particular titles, as well as
searching for particular types of titles in the text.identify the type
of note that appears in the text. Note that
the values for the type attribute must be entered exactly as shown, all
others must use the "x-" extension
mechanism.
If the user needs to record a type of title in the text that is not
covered by these values, please use the OSIS
attribute extension mechanism, "x-" in front of the name of your value
for this attribute.
.
.
psalm Use in the Psalms where what are considered "titles" in the
English text are actually numbered
as verses in the Hebrew text.
David's point about canonicity is well taken, but we must consider:
1. Are we considering canonicity with respect to the NASB as published,
OR
2. Are we considering canonicity with respect to how the NASB
publishers
saw it, that is that the Scripture text is cannonical. If we make this
decision, we are simply electronically duplicating the paper
publication.
IMHO, 2. is the far better choice.
Hope this helps, and thanks again to all.
Tom Sullivan
i...@beforgiven.info
FAX: 815-301-2835
---------------------
On 5/8/20 10:28 AM, David Haslam wrote:
One of the subtleties of OSIS is that the canonical attribute is
actually not a theological matter.
It’s easy to jump to the wrong conclusion that SWORD treats it as
if it was.
It’s actually a technical attribute relating to the published work it
represents in digital format.
So it can just as well appear in a Commentary module as a Bible
module.
Anything with canonical=“false” should in theory at least be only
because the marked text was not in the original work.
Then the question becomes “What was the original work?”
I will leave you to ponder....
David
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 15:09, Karl Kleinpaste <k...@kleinpaste.org
<mailto:k...@kleinpaste.org>> wrote:
On 5/8/20 10:00 AM, Tom Sullivan wrote:
because Psalm titles are canonical, front-ends should put a
difference
in display between them and human editor supplied titles.
It's a fine idea, but it requires (in the xhtml case) the engine
to wrap
such titles in a suitable <span></span> so that a CSS control can
put it
to use, with appropriate new default render header content for it.
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