Ok, Augustine, I think we have come a lot closer. And there is
actually no language barrier...
I tried to explain that you can use VBAP for (stereophonic)
formatconversion.
Steinberg: I have no relationship whatsoever with this company.
However, you are not the only one who thinks that I am working for
them...
(https://de.linkedin.com/in/schreiberstefan
is NOT me. AFAIK.... 🤷♂️ )
I think it would be a great idea to integrate DPAP into their products.
Best to directly write to them, I guess.
Best,
Stefan (the guy who is NOT Steinberg)
P.S.: This doesn’t go on like this. Either he or me has to change the
name now... 🧐
- - -
> I think perhaps Stefan there is a language barrier or problem with
> communication here ?
>
> Your exact words were ""*It is important to see that every position is
> panned to 2 speakers in *
> *2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.*"
> You didn't refer to mono - but I did refer to "one" channel being spread
> over several speakers sounding crap (or blurring spatialisation) to which
> you replied this was wrong because its how millions of records were made
-
> - of course I believe you know what were stereo is and were referring to
> panning one sound source (eg a trumpet) across two speakers as in
> stereophonic panning - "one soundsource" being different to "one
channel"
> - thus the confusion?
> Yes I know what VBAP is - I literally said it uses triangles in my last
> post and that I've used it for 15 years, VBAP is great - I do mix it with
> ambisonics sometimes though.
> As for upmixing stereo to 5.1 - I agree with you about leaving the front
> left and right intact if you *HAVE* to do it - all I was saying is
upmixing
> stereo to 5.1 is never going to be as good as actually having a 5.1 mix
to
> start with all six discrete channels created from the beginning uising a
> surround sound panner .(yes I know about the LFE).
> By the way - you work for Steinbergs marketing department right? If you
are
> the same Stefan - will you PLEASE try and get them to incorporate some
kind
> of DBAP (Distance Based Amplitude Panning) or similar into Nuendo?
> Basically, it would be great if you could draw speaker maps/position the
> speakers in the panner by dragging and dropping them to different
positions
> (so then you could use really irregular arrays). For example, if I wanted
> to pan sounds corridors in a labyrinth or maze (which I have done
before),
> or have a circle within a circle etc etc this would be a great feature
and
> would definitely give it an edge over competitors like reaper. Ive been
> told you can do this in Pyramix but never seen it - but I have to do it
in
> Max MSP at the moment or use Nuendos panners in ways they werent meant to
> be used. It would also be handy to adjust the directivity of
soundsources.
>
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 11:53, Stefan Schreiber <st...@mail.telepac.pt>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > I should add diffusion can use one channel successfully over several
>> > speakers for creative effect - but her eIm talking about the accuracy
of
>> > panning, point sources etc
>>
>> So I tried to accurately describe how panning is done... 😇
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Stefan - I think we may be getting crossed wires here (pun not
>> intended)
>> >>
>> >> Me: *“one channel over several speakers sounds crap”*
>> >> "
>> >> You: *"*
>> >> *I would say your statement is just wrong. We are following normal
>> >> panning rules, which are proven in millions of *
>> >> *recordings."*
>> >>
>> >> Stereo recordings have two channels, not one - unless you're
referring
>> to
>> >> mono which of course can sound fine with one channel on two
speakers -
>> but
>> >> has no panning whatsoever
>> >> But perhaps you are not understanding what I am saying or perhaps you
>> are
>> >> trolling me :) You suggest "just trying VBAP - well I first "just
tried
>> >> VBAP" fifteen years ago and have used it in literally hundreds of
>> >> installations since and much prefer it to ambisonics in 90 percent of
>> >> situations.- I literally use it for work nearly every day and its
cousin
>> >> DBAP and other forms of amplitude panning, day in day out so I do
hope
>> you
>> >> take the time to actually understand what I am trying to say
otherwise I
>> >> fear this may be wasted time for both of us .
>> >>
>> >> "*Stereo to 4 speakers: You can’t map stereo to positions which are
out
>> >> of the stereo front*."
>> >>
>> >> You can and people do - but it sounds crap - which was my point -
people
>> >> upmix a stereo file to 5.1 for example in post houses all the time
>> there is
>> >> a variety of ways they do this and you can read about them here :
>> >>
>> >> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-10546-3_28
>> >>
>> >> "*It is important to see that every position is panned to 2 speakers
in
>> *
>> >> *2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.*"
>> >> ????? Yes and no - stereo is panned to positions in 2 speakers of
course
>> >> but I would think more carefully about what 2D and 3D actually mean
>> .......
>> >> technically speaking - 3D just refers to 3 dimensions. 3D could refer
>> to a
>> >> million speakers, so could 2D actually. It's very rare for any kind
of
>> >> spatial audio to be rendered over 3 speakers though it happens.
Whilst I
>> >> know simple surround systems are referred to as 3D In reality the
whole
>> >> thing is a misnomer, 3D should include height and proximity. So a
point
>> >> source (1 speaker ) should be called 0D, Stereo should be called 1D
- a
>> >> line - quad/5.1 octaphonic/3 speakers you refer to should be called
2D
>> as
>> >> its just a flat surface- from then on we include height - Ambisonics
>> when
>> >> rendered with height, should, in my opinion, should be called 2.5 D
as
>> it
>> >> cant really create proximity properly - aka sounds coming close to
you.
>> >> True 3D audio, where a sound can be anywhere in 3D space including
>> sounds
>> >> that come right up close to you can only be created by DBAP in my
>> >> experience, or other amplitude panning and perhaps binaural (not
heard
>> >> this convincingly yet) though Matt Montags WFS with height system
>> might be
>> >> able to do it. More on the definition of dimensions :
>> >>
>> >>
>>
https://gadgetsthink.com/what-is-dimension-full-explained-1d-2d-3d-4d-etc/
>> >>
>> >> You could argue you could add height to 3 (or even 2 or 1) speakers
>> using
>> >> psychoacoustic effects , directional bands etc making it 3D - or you
>> could
>> >> stick one speaker up a lampost for height - but that's another can
of
>> >> worms. Recent "developments" in 4D, 8D audio etc etc are just
marketing
>> >> gimmicks.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, - I am not talking about ambisonics or object-based panning
(and
>> >> yes object-based panning systems such as Atmos use amplitude panning
in
>> a
>> >> system similar to VBAP but instead of a triangle of speakers uses a
>> >> rectangular tesselation :
>> >> https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2016210174A1/en) .
>> >> I am talking for want of a better expression amplitude panning and
also
>> >> the Scheoops type system at the beginning of this thread.
>> >> Lets me try and explain things as clearly as possible.
>> >> IF I have a stereo file in which a bird flies from one speaker to
>> another
>> >> and I simply "upmix" this stereo file by doubling it onto a quad
array
>> then
>> >> the bird will be flying from the front left to the front right
speaker
>> AND
>> >> the back left to the back right speaker - which willl sound crap, or
at
>> >> least not usually the desired effect . So in the example of the
Scheops
>> >> setup - you have 8 hypercardioid speakers point to the 8 corners of
the
>> >> cube - each one of those channels is meant to go go to ONE speaker
of a
>> >> cube array. Ie each one of those mics and speakers covers one corner
or
>> an
>> >> eighth of the 3D sound field. Let's go back to the bird. Say I have a
>> bird
>> >> happily staying in the top right speaker of my octaphonic cube as was
>> >> recorded there by my mic or positioned there by mu panner. If you
>> >> suddenly get that top right corner channel of the octatonic cube and
>> put it
>> >> on two speakers instead of just the one it was originally meant to
>> >> represent (aka upmixing) then the bird will no longer be an accurate
>> point
>> >> source in one place it will now be coming from two places, if those
two
>> >> speakers are in different trees - that bird will now be coming from
two
>> >> trees - aka the bird will suddenly be larger, or the imaging blurred
and
>> >> you might get lucky with precedence effect,this will apply to all
>> panning
>> >> in the sound scene too if you have upmixed all speakers, the further
>> apart
>> >> the speakers are the worse it will be. For me this kind of thing is
>> >> crucially important as I do walkaround installations that cannot
have a
>> >> "sweet spot". So upmixing presents a problem for this type of 3D
>> audio
>> >> recordings - and perhaps less so for ambisonics. Now downmixing with
>> this
>> >> kind of recordings and composition actually works quite well and I
have
>> >> tried it many times when I've needed to send a rough mix to
prospective
>> >> clients and I am left with the daunting task of downmixing a 28
channel
>> >> installation to a stereo file - you have to be very selective about
>> which
>> >> channels you use and the perspective of the listener. Funnily enough
the
>> >> stereo recordings I have downmixed from quad and octaphonic
recordings
>> >> sound strangely spacious. I hope this makes my point of view clear -
it
>> is
>> >> quite simple and based on years of experience and research and is
quite
>> >> practical - things have to work or I don't get gigs and the public
>> response
>> >> is not good simple as that.
>> >> Delightful as this conversation is I have to get back to work and
will
>> be
>> >> offline for a bit - I bid you good day sir.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 01:34, Stefan Schreiber <
st...@mail.telepac.pt>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Stereo to 4 speakers: You can’t map stereo to positions which are
out
>> >>> of the stereo front.
>> >>>
>> >>> Octomic to 20 speakers: Should actually (and does) work, via simple
>> >>> panning.
>> >>>
>> >>> It is important to see that every position is panned to 2 speakers
in
>> >>> 2D, and (usually) 3 speakers in 3D.
>> >>> (If speakers should stay empty I don’t see any problem.)
>> >>>
>> >>> “one channel over several speakers sounds crap”
>> >>>
>> >>> We are following normal panning rules, which are proven in millions
of
>> >>> recordings. So I would say your statement is just wrong.
>> >>>
>> >>> You don’t spread “8 speakers over 20 speakers” in some statistical
>> >>> ways, if that is what you meant.
>> >>> So I just have suggested to “try” VBAP, obtaining some very
reasonable
>> >>> (and proven) results.
>> >>>
>> >>> Object and speaker panning is not very different, by the way.
>> >>> (You can see the speakers also as objects. )
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Best,
>> >>>
>> >>> Stefan
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Mensagem de Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> ---------
>> >>> Data: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 23:21:50 +0100
>> >>> De: Augustine Leudar <augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> >>> Assunto: Re: [Sursound] Recorder for ORTF-3D OUTDOOR SET
>> >>> Para: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
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