Hi Trond, thanks for the info DBAP - very interesting - I have used max msp quite a lot in my installations so I will definately be looking into that. It woyuld be good to pan to all sorts of speakers without following the traditional layout, best, Gus
On 15 November 2010 17:00, <[email protected]> wrote: > Send Sursound mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Sursound digest..." > > > When replying, please remember to edit your Subject line to that of the > original message you are replying to, so it is more specific than "Re: > Contents of Sirsound-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Audition goes Mac. And fully multi-channel! > (Daniel Courville) > 2. Re: Audition goes Mac. And fully multi-channel! (Danny McCarty) > 3. Re: DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics (Martin Leese) > 4. Re: DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics ([email protected]) > 5. Re: Largest ever indoor multichannel sound art installation > in the world at Eden project, Cornwall, UK (Trond Lossius) > (Simone Cercignani) > 6. Re: DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics (Trond Lossius) > 7. Re: DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics (Dave Malham) > 8. Re: Largest ever indoor multichannel sound art installation > in the world at Eden project, Cornwall, UK (Trond Lossius) > (Dave Malham) > 9. Re: DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics (Trond Lossius) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 13:46:10 -0500 > From: Daniel Courville <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Audition goes Mac. And fully multi-channel! > To: Sursound <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <c9059849.7ac2%[email protected]<c9059849.7ac2%[email protected]> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Le 10-11-13 22:26, Danny McCarty a ?crit : > > >When you guys are posting samples what format are you using?? > > I would use FLAC or WavPack. > > - Daniel > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:07:51 -0800 > From: Danny McCarty <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Audition goes Mac. And fully multi-channel! > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Thanks Daniel. > > On Nov 14, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Daniel Courville wrote: > > > Le 10-11-13 22:26, Danny McCarty a ?crit : > > > >> When you guys are posting samples what format are you using?? > > > > I would use FLAC or WavPack. > > > > - Daniel > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sursound mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > Danny McCarty > Monolith Media, Inc. > 4183 Summit View > Hood River, Or 97031 > > 415-331-7628 > 541-399-0089 Cell > > http://www.monolithmedia.net/ > > http://www.danielmccarty.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:31:51 -0700 > From: Martin Leese <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Trond Lossius <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Martin Leese wrote: > >> This brings the number of 3-D audio panning > >> systems up to four: > >> > >> DBAP -- Distance-Based Amplitude Panning > >> VDP -- Vector Distance Panning > >> VBAP -- Vector-Based Amplitide Panning > >> Ambisonics > > > > And we could add: > > > > WFS - Wave Field Synthesis > > ViMiC - Virtual Microphone Technique > > AEP - Ambisonics Equivalent Panning > > Never heard of AEP. Can anybody suggest a > reference for this? > > I didn't think people used WFS for 3-D > (because it requires a very large number of > speakers). > > >> Are these all distinct techniques, or are some > >> of them different names for the same > >> technique? > > > > VDP and DBAP is based on the same idea, but DBAP as presented in the ICMC > > 2009 paper > > > http://www.trondlossius.no/system/fileattachments/30/original/icmc2009-dbap.pdf > > The only reference I could find for VDP was > some MATLAB code (VDPgain_dist.m) in a > Spatial Audio Matlab Toolbox > (SpatialAudioMATLABToolbox.zip). > > >> Also, there is a Wikipedia article on > >> Ambisonics. Could I encourage people who > >> are familiar with the other techniques to create > >> Wikipedia articles on them. > > > > Yes, that would be useful. I'll see what I can do early next year. Do > > Wikipedia have any etiquette regarding whether you can (not) write up on > > subject areas that you have been a major contributor to? I know that > > wikipedia articles should not contain original research. > > Providing that you cite conference or journal > papers then this is not considered oriiginal > research. Citing your own website is frowned > upon so, if you want to do that, simply ask > somebody else to cite it. > > Regards, > Martin > -- > Martin J Leese > E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org > Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 00:31:56 +0100 > From: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Sursound] DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <20101114233156.gb4...@zita2> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 02:31:51PM -0700, Martin Leese wrote: > > > Never heard of AEP. Can anybody suggest a > > reference for this? > > ICMC 2007, Martin Neukom and Jan Schacher. > > Basically it's the equivalent of adding an AMB decoder > to each panner instead of keeping this factored out to > the playback environment. > While it's a valid approach, I can't see *why* anyone > would want to do this. You can always use an AMB decoder > on the mixed signal. > > Ciao, > > -- > FA > > There are three of them, and Alleline. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:12:17 +0100 > From: Simone Cercignani <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Largest ever indoor multichannel sound art > installation in the world at Eden project, Cornwall, UK (Trond > Lossius) > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi, > > On Nov 12, 2010, at 6:00 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > > Send Sursound mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Sursound digest..." > > > > > > When replying, please remember to edit your Subject line to that of the > original message you are replying to, so it is more specific than "Re: > Contents of Sirsound-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Largest ever indoor multichannel sound art installation > > in the world at Eden project, Cornwall, UK (Trond Lossius) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 19:45:55 +0100 > > From: Trond Lossius <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Largest ever indoor multichannel sound art > > installation in the world at Eden project, Cornwall, UK > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Hi, > > > >> I am writing to let you know about the largest multichannel sound art > >> installation in the world at the Eden project. For those unfamiliar with > the > >> Eden Project it is the largest indoor tropical conservatory in the world > >> covering several acres and presently has lots of speakers hidden in the > >> bushes ! Hopefully this event is something that would interest you as > well > >> > >> > http://www.edenproject.com/come-and-visit/whats-on/heart-of-darkness.php > > > > Sounds exciting! > > > >> hopefully somebody from this list will be able to get down and check it > out, > >> Although the installation is laid out with a very unusual speaker > >> configuration which included height information as well as surround > sound I > >> have discovered several things during my application of large sound > >> installations. Discrete sound sources (ie one speaker dedicated to one > >> sound) work much better than trying to put the sound in a surround sound > >> image using a surround sound panner in Nuendo or whatever). Leaves act > as > >> fantastic dispersers of souind and the sound of say, insects, sound much > >> more realistic if the speaker is hidden in the bushes. > > > > Depending on how you are rendering and distributing material, DBAP > (distance-based amplitude panning) might be of interest as well. It's so far > available for MaxMSP as part of Jamoma, as part of Ircam Spatialisateur, and > included in the Flux Ircam Spat plugin: > > > > http://www.jamoma.org/ > > http://www.jamoma.org/papers/icmc2009-dbap.pdf > > http://www.fluxhome.com/products/plug_ins/ircam_spat > > > > DBAP doesn't make any assumptions on positioning of loadspeakers or > listener, and was developed for installation purposes. > > I suggest X-spat boX2 HD. you may use any speakers configuration fron 4 to > 64 speakers freely positioned in a virtual cube of side from 4 to 900 > metres. > You can use also psychoacoustics alghtorims like ITD, Doppler, HRTF, HEAD > FILTERING and many many other, for more info: > > http://xspat.aegweb.com/new/inglese/x_inghost.html > > I think that it is the better solution for you. > > > Cheers. > > Simone > > > > >> Although the installation is ambisonically laid out many of the > recordings > >> were only taken with surround sound microphones - I am shortly to return > to > >> the amazon with new equipment and would welcome any advice on a good > >> multichannel recorder and low noise mics to take with me (I reckon I > need at > >> least six inputs for this - sound devices look good but are so expensive > - > >> what are peoples on the Tascam 680 ?) any suggestions welcome. I also > look > >> forward to discussing the best way of recording ambisonically , > > > > So far I'm quite happy with the Tascam 680. It's way better to use with > the Soundfield 250 than the Edirol. > > > > > > Cheers, > > Trond > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sursound mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > > > > End of Sursound Digest, Vol 28, Issue 9 > > *************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20101115/d4493c94/attachment.html > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:34:20 +0100 > From: Trond Lossius <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >> Never heard of AEP. Can anybody suggest a > >> reference for this? > > > > ICMC 2007, Martin Neukom and Jan Schacher. > > > > Basically it's the equivalent of adding an AMB decoder > > to each panner instead of keeping this factored out to > > the playback environment. > > While it's a valid approach, I can't see *why* anyone > > would want to do this. You can always use an AMB decoder > > on the mixed signal. > > The paper is available here: > > > http://www.icst.net/research/publications/single-view/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=165&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=77&cHash=01fce057e7ac12d78732aaf27f0a2193 > > AEP do in-phase decoding, and due to some math magic this enables one to > dynamically change the encoding order for sources, also permitting decimal > orders like 4.36. Furthermore the paper show that fewer speakers are > required per order. So, a ring with 20 speakers is able to reproduce up to > approx. 60th order. > > As the direction of the source will get more and more directional with > increasing order, this can be thought of as pen size in e.g. photoshop: You > can decide to have a source encoded using a low order (diffuse location) and > then dynamically increase the order making the direction of the source > increasingly articulated. The artistic potential of this is fairly > attractive. > > > Best, > Trond > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:25:46 +0000 > From: Dave Malham <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 13/11/2010 10:32, Trond Lossius wrote: > > > > VDP and DBAP is based on the same idea, but DBAP as presented in the ICMC > 2009 paper > > > > > http://www.trondlossius.no/system/fileattachments/30/original/icmc2009-dbap.pdf > > > > has a number of additional features. The important difference of DBAP and > ViMiC as compared to ambisonics and VBAP is that there are no restrictions > on the positioning of loudspeakers or listener. Loudspeakers are not > restricted to a ring/sphere surrounding the listener, but could e.g. be laid > out as a regular or irregular grid in the space. This is what makes it > useful for installations in one or more spaces, such as art galleries and > museums, where rings and spheres of speakers might be impractical and the > audience is free and expected to move about. > > I really don't understand "...ambisonics and VBAP is that there are no > restrictions on the > positioning of loudspeakers or listener.", at least as regards to VBAP. We > are currently - and have > been for over two years now - using VBAP in The Morning Line sculpture > ( > http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=14039) > and > the reason we used it rather than Ambisonics was because it could cope with > extremely irregular > arrays of speakers. Comments? > > > > -- > These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer > /*********************************************************************/ > /* Dave Malham http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/research/dave-malham/ */ > /* Music Research Centre */ > /* Department of Music "http://music.york.ac.uk/"; */ > /* The University of York Phone 01904 432448 */ > /* Heslington Fax 01904 432450 */ > /* York YO10 5DD */ > /* UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' */ > /* "http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/"; */ > /*********************************************************************/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 09:29:14 +0000 > From: Dave Malham <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Largest ever indoor multichannel sound art > installation in the world at Eden project, Cornwall, UK (Trond > Lossius) > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 15/11/2010 08:12, Simone Cercignani wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Nov 12, 2010, at 6:00 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > > > I suggest X-spat boX2 HD. you may use any speakers configuration fron 4 > to 64 speakers freely positioned in a virtual cube of side from 4 to 900 > metres. > > You can use also psychoacoustics alghtorims like ITD, Doppler, HRTF, HEAD > FILTERING and many many other, for more info: > > > Umm - Doppler is psychoacoustic?? > > > -- > These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer > /*********************************************************************/ > /* Dave Malham http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/research/dave-malham/ */ > /* Music Research Centre */ > /* Department of Music "http://music.york.ac.uk/"; */ > /* The University of York Phone 01904 432448 */ > /* Heslington Fax 01904 432450 */ > /* York YO10 5DD */ > /* UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' */ > /* "http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/"; */ > /*********************************************************************/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 12:31:13 +0100 > From: Trond Lossius <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] DBAP, VDP, VBAP, and Ambisonics > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >> VDP and DBAP is based on the same idea, but DBAP as presented in the > ICMC 2009 paper > >> > >> > http://www.trondlossius.no/system/fileattachments/30/original/icmc2009-dbap.pdf > >> > >> has a number of additional features. The important difference of DBAP > and ViMiC as compared to ambisonics and VBAP is that there are no > restrictions on the positioning of loudspeakers or listener. Loudspeakers > are not restricted to a ring/sphere surrounding the listener, but could e.g. > be laid out as a regular or irregular grid in the space. This is what makes > it useful for installations in one or more spaces, such as art galleries and > museums, where rings and spheres of speakers might be impractical and the > audience is free and expected to move about. > > > > I really don't understand "...ambisonics and VBAP is that there are no > restrictions on the positioning of loudspeakers or listener.", at least as > regards to VBAP. We are currently - and have been for over two years now - > using VBAP in The Morning Line sculpture ( > http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/index.php?fuseaction=wanappln.projectview&upload_id=14039) > and the reason we used it rather than Ambisonics was because it could cope > with extremely irregular arrays of speakers. Comments? > > > Thanks for the link, that seems to be a very interesting project! > > It's difficult to figure out the loudspeaker setup in this sonic pavilion > from the image, but reading the AES paper: > > http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15370 > > the 41 speakers seems to be subdivided into 6 "rooms". Each of these rooms > seem to have the speakers pointing towards the sweet spot of the room > (appendix A). Did these rooms coincide architectonically with the positions > that audience were likely to be standing at in order to experience the work? > > As the azimuth and elevation of each speaker relative to the sweet spot of > the room seems to be irregular, I think it makes a lot of sense to use VBAP > rather than ambisonics. > > If you want a source to move all around the sculpture, how do make it move > from one room to the next? Do you cross-fade from one sphere onto the next > as it moves? Or was "room 7", the one used for spatialization into the > structure as a whole using a subset of the speakers at the margins of the > sculpture to create yet another sphere? > > With DBAP you wouldn't have to subdivide the array in order to enforce a > "sphere surrounding sweet spot" way of thinking on to the sculpture. You > could just describe the position of all of the speakers, and then freely > move the sources around the sculpture. The theory of DBAP ideally assumes > loudspeakers to be radiating the same way in all direction, and I personally > know very few speakers that are close to doing so, so the sounding results > would be influenced by the direction of the loudspeakers. This would need to > be accounted for in the compositional process, but could spatially and > sculpturally be used in meaningful ways, leave impressions of sound sources > being directed towards or away from you depending on your and the speakers > positions. > > DBAP was in fact first developed for an installation with a loudspeaker > setup somewhat similar to the one of The Morning Line, although being 2D > instead of 3D. I was working on a sound installation for Galleri KiT, the > gallery space of the art academy in Trondheim, Norway. This gallery consists > of a number of semi-connected rooms. I wanted to have a total of 16 > loudspeakers distributed along the walls of the various rooms, and then have > sound sources drifting around the space, from one room to the next. > > I first tried setting up a set of VBAP rooms, with a mechanism for moving > from one room/VBAP system to the next as sources drifted. However I did not > manage to find a way of doing so that felt smooth and convincing. Sound > seemed to be glued to the walls of the rooms, sneaking from the wall of one > room to the next in a way that I felt to be abrupt and unconvincing for what > I was after. > > DBAP was developed late the night before the opening, and helped creating a > much smoother drift. As speakers were positioned along the walls, the > direction of the speakers was not experienced as problematic, it rather > added to the feeling that the sound had now moved on to the next room. > > I hope this helps clarifying the difference. > > Another way of explaining would be the following: > > Imagine that you have a regular 3D matrix/grid of 4x4x4 speakers. The grid > could be subdivided into 3x3x3 rooms, and ambisonic decoding for a cube of 8 > speakers used for each of the rooms. You would then need to find a way of > switching or crossfading from one cube to the next as the source moves > about. Alternatively, using DBAP, you would deal with all 64 loudspeakers in > one go. DBAP would simply feed the highest amount of gain to the speakers > closest to the virtual source, and next to none to the ones that are far > away, all while keeping the total intensity of all the loudspeakers at a > consistent level. > > > Best, > Trond > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Sursound mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > End of Sursound Digest, Vol 28, Issue 12 > **************************************** > -- 07812675974 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20101115/9c1162f2/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sursound mailing list [email protected] https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
