Todd, Your proposed configuration is allowed per NFPA 20 (2016) Figure A.4.15.6 bottom row.
Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Associate Fire Protection Engineer O 612-900-3755 \ M 763-688-4045 \ F 952-229-2923 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> \ burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com/> 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437 *Registered in: AK, LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT **NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout From: Brett Peters <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 1:46 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Elbows in pump suction Your fire pump testing is allowed to be done at actual system demand if the water supply is not capable of providing water for full flow of the fire pump 14.2.6.2.4 Where the maximum flow available from the water supply cannot provide a flow of 150 percent of the rated flow of the pump, the fire pump shall be operated at the greater of 100 percent of rated flow or the maximum flow demand of the fire protection system(s) maximum allowable discharge to determine its acceptance. I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday August 22nd Thanks Brett Peters General Manager Installation & Design Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd. [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 780 490 7602 office ext 202 780 490 7605 fax 780 777 0568 cell 780 718 2676 24h Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> for more information [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wRo6r0eNDUWx8YR-4XJLvwcnouQn_xEZH_HIb4jDbepWtON2RWC-ekzvZHKtncFOQqPcNQfzM] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4yJVI287VPLDWiW9maE2Np3U4CdszCY9deeyaLl8DM90wlBd7pnuOZV9U-swv-7gWN_24py6vo] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wlGmqj6Ja06DKOIMLPvEE8B2W8fT_TPPA3w-4JfqygLq9n77ECSni09YLIVICXJYzWo4Z0PjU] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zEgPbs279KVEfWIpIiWNLel8zAlcloW9dNXGLTaE1cMz88CRkmg17fju5BQB_iIzhWK20DUL8] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4z7J0kfmSGA8jKvDK0pTqW3KQlc5v-tYcWosmy5W7pdok462Gzu_9Ft7UK9oJUWDT1DzhQ4hUU] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wTVHoTZxkppBoWSCTFnGLgGTq0apivi8sNvWPyBsloO0mmy8ZYu4Ax854jo7ihTMFyeYeOceg] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4xwBWEOX5v9mpza4Jqf9lOKSwThBNvyIO7Rl-Cxo7NRiV7p70C0f1biwbh44Y-iIA5GcmD1MCo] [https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4yPfO1HdtbQPYiKlYE38cwc88ABhX7xN1nh0fCK5LjFXjKplJggk3Xn6_XypmtMWyADKR7ZRGk] On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 12:07 PM Fpdcdesign <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Eric, My main question is if the 10 diameter requirement can be split into 2 section or does it have to be one continuous length? The problem is that the suction pressure on the pump test goes to 0 psi at 1500 gpm. Based on my calculations, it should be around 17 psi. I know what you are all thinking; we are below 20 psi and this pump is never going to flow 2250 gpm. Correct. This pump was oversized and installed in an undersized pump house as required by the Engineer. According to him, our job is to “make their design work and no substitutions are allowed”. Fortunately the system demand is about 1200 gpm so we may eventually be able to meet that demand. This is. 6 month cluster f*** that has been going on for 2-1/2 years. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) 860-554-7054<tel:860-554-7054> (fax) 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> (cell) On Jul 14, 2023 at 1:05 PM, <Eric Rieve<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Todd, Like Brett mentioned, going vertical to eat up pipe length is shown in the annex of NFPA 20, and I’ve seen/used that approach before. When you say there is a problem with the test, is this for a new fire pump installation? Are you not meeting your curve, and if so, are you off by a substantial amount? I was always under the impression that the un-balanced flow caused by the elbow being to close to the suction inlet was a “long-term, causes damage over time” sort of issue, so if your problem is on a new install, I’d want to double check that there isn’t some other cause. 38” of straight run obviously isn’t great or to code, but it’s not like the elbow is directly attached to the suction flange either. Backflow has OS&Y valves right? Hope this helps, Eric Rieve Rieve Fire Protection From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 12:37 PM To: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Elbows in pump suction I am working on a pump house that has a 1500 gpm pump with an 8” suction line (no reducer). There is an elbow in the suction line parallel to the pump shaft with a piece of pipe that is 38” from the suction flange and there is a problem with the test. We have to add another 42” from the parallel elbow to the flange. There is physically not enough room in the pump house to make it in a single straight run. My proposal is to turn the offending elbow looking up (so no linger parallel), add a 42” vertical piece to an elbow and pipe that back to the discharge from the backflow preventer. Can the 80” be split into 2 pieces? NFPA 20 says nothing about that but I was wondering how it works in real life. FYI, the backflow discharge is already over the 80” threshold. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080<tel:860-535-2080> (ofc) 860-554-7054<tel:860-554-7054> (fax) 860-608-4559<tel:860-608-4559> (cell) _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
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