On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 6:54 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>
>
> On 12/25/16 16:41, Joel Rees wrote:
>> I got a happy birthday e-mail just now that purports to be from
>> fedoraforum@googlemail.com.
>>
>> Anyone know whether it is likely to be legit?
>
>
On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Markku Kolkka wrote:
> 25.12.2016, 10.41, Joel Rees kirjoitti:
>> I got a happy birthday e-mail just now that purports to be from
>> fedoraforum@googlemail.com.
>>
>> Anyone know whether it is likely to be legit?
>
> Birth
I got a happy birthday e-mail just now that purports to be from
fedoraforum@googlemail.com.
Anyone know whether it is likely to be legit?
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Joel Rees
I'm imagining I'm a novelist:
http://joels-random-eikaiwa.blogspot.com/2016/11/simplife01-1-meet-the-p
ch baseball, FWIW. :)
I didn't have "Never send to spam" checked. Guess I missed it somehow. :(
Still, there is a problem with the way e-mail is handled.
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I'm imagining I'm a novelist:
http://joel-rees-economics.blogspot.com/2016/06/econ101-novel-toc.html
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To keep this off-list as much as possible, the rant is here:
http://reiisi.blogspot.com/2016/07/to-gil-tim-fedora-et-al.html
(The blame lies elsewhere. I wish I had the network and social cred to
get a real movement started, away from the current faceless CA system
and towards a different identit
2014/07/04 3:52 "Jonathan Ryshpan" :
>
> On Thu, 2014-07-03 at 13:12 -0500, Kevin Martin wrote:
> > On 07/03/2014 12:47 PM, Jonathan Ryshpan wrote:
> > > I run a small weather station that acts as a web server. Recently
it's
> > > become impossible to access it via the web, though I can still acce
blem with logs is what to retain and what to strip out.
And logs that can't be directly read by humans are not worth the
having. Nobody will read them until long after the bad things happened
and left the system corrupted.
Enforced universalism is the last thing we want com
right and use openBSD?
Not being sarcastic. I use openBSD. And I agree with the sentiment. Java
never really impressed me as the cure-all it was sold as, and it's only
gone downhill since Oracle kidnapped it.
But I find the conflicting directions in Fedora a bit perplexing, of late.
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ht
On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> First time to try to use wireless since installing F17. Connects, but
> doesn't succeed at authorizing. Keeps trying to authorize for several
> minutes, then gives up.
>
> /var/log/messages shows stuff like
>
> Ne
upplicant.conf by
hand when I have time tomorrow, but I'm curious as to why I would need
to do the set up by hand for F17 when F16 just did its thing and it
worked.
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ee if there is a bug filed, but all the fussing with the
upgrade that ate my winter break leaves me running way behind. No
time. (And not a lot of motivation, frankly.)
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On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013 19:23:29 +0900
> Joel Rees wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Geoffrey Leach
>> wrote:
>> > This sounds like the problem being tracked by this thread:
>> > https://bugzil
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 7:57 AM, Geoffrey Leach wrote:
> On 01/03/2013 04:03:57 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> After the problems of the last weekend, starting getting strange
>> stuff
>> where the keyboard would freeze if sat on the screensaver login
>> screen
>> too l
var/log so far.
Any ideas what's going on here?
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Have a que
unblock the .cn domain to see if I can find out more.
HTTP access has no problems, even while yum is bogged down.
Do we have problems in the mirrors, or has my database for
updates/primary_db gone wonky?
Clean all doesn't help.
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 11:07 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Wed, Jan
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 01/02/2013 08:19 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Tim wrote:
>>> Allegedly, on or about 29 December 2012, Joel Rees sent:
>>>> I'm beginning to think the ISP has throttled me for yum
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> Is/are there any sort of yum group(s) that would aid in building an OS
> install that includes the security lab stuff? (Tried yum groupinfo
> "Security Lab" and got no carrot. Somehow I found the menu package,
> but that
On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Tim wrote:
> Allegedly, on or about 29 December 2012, Joel Rees sent:
>> I'm beginning to think the ISP has throttled me for yum.
>
> Could just be the time of the year, with more traffic than usual.
Definitely a possibility, particularly co
Is/are there any sort of yum group(s) that would aid in building an OS
install that includes the security lab stuff? (Tried yum groupinfo
"Security Lab" and got no carrot. Somehow I found the menu package,
but that doesn't automatically populate the menu with installed
packages.
the --help option to find more options.)
>The installer was difficult for me to use, among other things gray
>text on a light gray background, I gave up and used the install
>defaults ...
>
>Thank you,
(I've been thinking we need to re-emphasize the i
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Maciek Borzęcki
wrote:
> On Sun, 2012-12-30 at 21:02 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
>> What do I need to look for? With all the earth moving under our feet
>> because of /usr merge and systemd, I have no idea where else needs to
>> be set up.
>
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 12/30/2012 08:02 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> Used the netinstall CD image on a USB stick to install the minimal
>> install -- F17 64 bit.
>>
>> Boots to the text console.
>>
>> yum groupinstalled Win
/usr merge and systemd, I have no idea where else needs to
be set up.
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On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Mika Suomalainen wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 29.12.2012 01:07, Joel Rees wrote:
>> So I want to block yum from going to any domain in .cn .
>>
>> Is there an easy way to do it, either in yum.conf
onism, I would not want to do
this, but for the time being, it's very useful.)
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On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 29.12.2012 00:20, schrieb Joel Rees:
>> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Reindl Harald
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 28.12.2012 23:43, schrieb Joel Rees:
>>>> I'm wonderi
On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 28.12.2012 23:43, schrieb Joel Rees:
>> I'm wondering if anyone has ventured to move /usr after the install.
>> If so, how badly does it bite?
>
> if selinux is disabled it should be quite easy to m
raproject.org, deleting the Chinese servers as I refresh
them. That would be a lot of work, too.)
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(Sorry for the spam, Alan.)
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 8:24 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:12:43 +0900
> Joel Rees wrote:
>
>> Never mind.
>>
>> I'll just chalk another one up to the wrecking crew, install fresh in
>> a 15G partition and figure
Never mind.
I'll just chalk another one up to the wrecking crew, install fresh in
a 15G partition and figure out where to go from there.
And the engineers whose hubris pushed this accursed merge /usr project
have my eternal disrespect.
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
&
Well, I looked around with the rescue mode, and it looks like the
netinstall failed to install the kernel and associated files. And
grub2 can only find f16 kernels.
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> I was planning things out, then I thought, just maybe it'll work, and
ndows home edition or
whatever Microsoft calls their attempt to answer freedom with the
dole-by-force. Not that I agree with combining /bin and /usr/bin, but
in this case I had hard reasons, not just the ones that will become
obvious next year when it all hits the fan.)
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t was
> indeed the case, then would not the legal departments of the affected
> companies (especially Oracle, who most likely has a legal war machine
> easily on par with MS) have dismissed it rather than letting the company
> succumb to the demands?
>
Oracle is cl
nyway, Mateusz.
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
> wrote:
>> On 22.06.2012 19:29, Joel Rees wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 20.06.2012
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
wrote:
> On 22.06.2012 19:29, Joel Rees wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
>> wrote:
>>> On 20.06.2012 16:13, Joel Rees wrote:
>>>> Tried preupgrade, but it can't find
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Mateusz Marzantowicz
wrote:
> On 20.06.2012 16:13, Joel Rees wrote:
>> Tried preupgrade, but it can't find my old system, and kicks the
>> upgrade process to the curb.
>>
>> Then I tried the netinstall CD and it can't find
so bad, but I also don't want to lose all the stuff I have on here
> either!...
>
>
> EGO II
>
>
> On 06/20/2012 10:13 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> Tried preupgrade, but it can't find my old system, and kicks the
>> upgrade process to the curb.
>>
de boot of the
netinstall CD appears to be unable to mount LVM partitions.
Does anyone know of a work-around short of backing up /etc and /home
and doing a fresh install?
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t; permissions!" it said.
>
> ;)
> FC
The world is not as simple as some people thought back then.
Anyway, did you try figuring out what group owns the modem port and
adding your user to that group?
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On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 26.05.2012 07:45, schrieb Joel Rees:
>>>> Do you understand the reason you still set up swap, even though your
>>>> entire workload working set fits into RAM?
>>>
>>> there is no sin
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 9:36 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 17.05.2012 14:29, schrieb Joel Rees:
>>> you can guess how long it takes dump 16 GB to disk and load
>>> it
>>
>> Guess,
>>
>> Or calculate?
>
> calculate it
I'd
ess how long it takes dump 16 GB to disk and load
> it
Guess,
Or calculate?
Do you understand the reason you still set up swap, even though your
entire workload working set fits into RAM?
> compared with a full boot between 10 and 30 seconds (30
> seconds with a LOT of services like
uld be less
brutal than what I outlined below.
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:06 PM, Jonathan Allen
> wrote:
>> Joe Zeff said:
>>> /home/user/.xsession-errors would be another good place to check.
>>
>> Here is
NG **: ICE I/O Error
>
> (xfdesktop:1438): libxfce4ui-WARNING **: Disconnected from session manager.
> migrate: Fatal IO error 0 (Success) on X server :0.0.
> No protocol specified
> --
I'm wondering if this is related to a problem I'm having where the
inp
ing
"GRUB version 0.94" when you do it that way.
Also, grub2 is a work in progress. Things will change.
But the particularly post you were referring to was probably
misinterpreting something, most likely the drive letters (which, as
you might know, tend not to be stable, and, particularly not
to check the man pages and think about once or twice first.
Anyway, try emptying the obvious caches first.
That is, kill the stalled session, empty a cache, try logging in again.
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lockfile that needs
> removing to unlock the user's account?
>
> Jonathan
Have you tried the brutal method of deleting the caches or the xfce state?
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On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 04/14/2012 09:11 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> With the old flash plugin, youtube works fine.
>>
>>> > May put
>>> > flash in one account on the box I'm using here, to see if it's perhaps
>>
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>> On 04/14/2012 02:15 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>> Well, I just downloaded the tarball once more, and took a look. cmp
>>> says today's tarball is differen
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 04/14/2012 02:15 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> Well, I just downloaded the tarball once more, and took a look. cmp
>> says today's tarball is different from yesterdays. Unpacking the
>> tarball and doing a diff -r revea
On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 04/14/2012 01:03 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> Anyone else having issues with this version of flash? -- Shockwave Flash
>> 11.2 r202.
>
> No problems at all with flash/youtube on firefox.
>
> However, I'm installin
sues with this version of flash? -- Shockwave Flash
11.2 r202.
And anyone have an idea why the owner of a file would end up 5000+userid?
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Proof my brain has not been working right lately --
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Rick Stevens
> wrote:
>> On 04/10/2012 03:55 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>>
>>> Anybody using XFCE or LXDE who are missing their hibe
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/11/2012 04:36 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> He says you've misinterpreted him, which is another communication sin
>> (in that it doesn't lead to communication) that we are all sometimes
>> prone to.
>
&g
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/11/2012 04:36 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> He says you've misinterpreted him, which is another communication sin
>> (in that it doesn't lead to communication) that we are all sometimes
>> prone to.
>
&g
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 04/11/2012 04:02 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> Of course, you can always try the keys that might have moved --
>> ()[]{}"'=;:+*-_\| and so forth -- where you'd type a user name. You
>> often have to thin
t, pointing members asking about F17 toward
> the test list *is* helping them because it's telling them where they can get
> their questions answered.
But arguing about what is appropriate here probably doesn't help
anyone on either list. Probably doesn't vent the real frustrations,
some debugging until we can put the WINTEL-pseudo-standard
infected hardware behind us. (And I don't even see Apple trying to do
that, now.)
Of course, you can always try the keys that might have moved --
()[]{}"'=;:+*-_\| and so forth -- where you'd type a user name. You
often h
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Rick Stevens
wrote:
> On 04/10/2012 03:55 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> Anybody using XFCE or LXDE who are missing their hibernate button in
>> the logout dialog after the recent kernel upgrade?
>
>
> Which new kernel? I'm runni
there's something that needs to be done, don't
remember exactly what.)
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On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Bryn M. Reeves wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 04/03/2012 04:56 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> Good point. I don't visit those sites, and it's important for me
>> to mention that. No p0rn, period, and m
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Tim wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 16:10 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
>> Well, there is a reason some people don't want universal ID, for example.
>> It's a lot broader topic than you may want to believe. It's similar to the
>> r
(woops, missed the user list)
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Bryn M. Reeves wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 04/03/2012 08:10 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Tim
>> wrote: s/some/a lot of/
>>
>> if you
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Tim wrote:
> Tim:
>>> It always struck me that personal files ought to have no group or
>>> world permissions set by default. If you wanted your files to have
>>> those extra permission set, then it ought to be done as a deliber
time.)
And I glue it together with per-user groups. Without per-user groups,
I would have to go through serious admin-level contortions to grab a
download. Does that make sense?
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On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Danishka Navin wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Danishka Navin
>> wrote:
>> > yum groupinstall 'Sugar Desktop Environment'
>>
>> N
esktop on F15.
Unless I've been consistently mis-typing sugar-desktop on F15.
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> Not a really important question, but does anyone know why
>> sugar-desktop doesn't show when you do a yum grouplist?
>>
Not a really important question, but does anyone know why
sugar-desktop doesn't show when you do a yum grouplist?
(I suppose I should get back on the sugar lists.)
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On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 12:53 PM, nomnex wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:18:00 +0900
>> Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> Lenovo S-100 pseudo-netbook (intel 64 running 32 bit) with Fedora
>> installed from the F16 Security spin (LXDE) live USB.
>>
>> Posted earlie
ith sudo, and we could have had sandboxed apps
years and years ago. (With a bit of work, but not near what ACLs and
their ilk cost us.)
That was the unix way, and we have parted from it to our detriment.
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t was "invented" by a number of people who understood how to get
along without ACLs and capabilities and all the stupid machinery
necessary to support them.
Adding ACLs and capabilities to a *nix system is like giving the car
owner a rope to tie his car door shut when th
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 03/29/2012 11:18 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> I'm sure I need some library for LibreOffice that didn't get picked up
>> in the dependency check when I installed it. Anyone have a suggestion?
>
>
> Try ha
Erk. Za Bog Numer. Ji baggu no bango.
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> Filed a bug on this, redhat bugzilla 80286
Make that bugzilla 802086.
>> On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>&
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 8:38 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> Filed a bug on this, redhat bugzilla 80286
>
> On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>> I have openbox (from the F16 security live image via live USB install)
>> on a lenovo s100 and, sometime in the last cou
I'll just note that you are not alone in questioning the wisdom of the
current directions. (Yeah, plural. That's part of the problem.)
Not alone in your frustrations, either.
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ffice that didn't get picked up
in the dependency check when I installed it. Anyone have a suggestion?
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Guidelines: http://fedorap
ee-as-in-freedom OS ten years down
the road, this kind of stuff is relevant. Sure, long discussions here
are kind of off-topic, but the heads-up is not.
(And those who complained about the post being OT are the ones who
dragged the list into the discussion, if you ask me.)
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Filed a bug on this, redhat bugzilla 80286
On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> I have openbox (from the F16 security live image via live USB install)
> on a lenovo s100 and, sometime in the last couple of kernel updates,
> it likes to hang up on logging out.
>
&
al scarcity. So that they think they can make everyone
pay them to tell them what to do. Demigods and IP demagogues.
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/30_os-prober ###
> ### END /etc/grub.d/30_os-prober ###
>
> ### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/40_custom ###
> # This file provides an easy way to add custom menu entries. Simply type the
> # menu entries you want to add after this comment. Be careful not to change
> # the 'exec tail&
been able to do telinit 2 and
then log back in and telinit 5 to bring it back, but the next time I
tried that without re-booting, it just hung. (Not sure what target I
would be specifying for systemctl
Not sure what to look for in /var/log.
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ndencies, attack vectors, opportunities for
> frozen jobs, etc are born.
Hey, come on, no need to blame that all on the younger guys.
Some of us old codgers like to do that, too.
:-/
> [...]
(What seems clear one day for me is not the next. And I was hoping to
grow old gracefully. :()
--
(I wish I would quit forgetting important details.)
On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> This was my second try at a live USB, and I decided to experiment with
> an encrypted volume for /home. Used a bunch of leetsp3@k substitutions
... I mean, for the passphrase ...
>
ki without guidance.
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we add to this thread, the higher Linda's post thread
gets ranked in searches, but the less damage to the innocent bystander
-- statistically -- it does. I was going to suggest breaking/stopping
the thread, but burying it seems like a good option, too.)
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I the only one who runs a yum update before I have breakfast every morning?
;)
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age
> where effort really has to be looked at whether it advances the main chance.
>
> I think we ought to put this thread to bed, its beginning to drift OT
>
What, and deny me the chance to reminisce about an old 6800 protyping
board, building (though not desgining) my own high-speed
html
Anyway, as several have noted already, the "mass migration" to the
forums is not what it would seem, for several reasons.
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bullet, but now he has
paint all over one of his best shirts, so to speak. And you completely
missed the Neal Becker at which you got upset.
On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Linda McLeod wrote:
> [a bunch of stuff that does not need repeating]
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Joel Rees
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us
A bug for the change in /bin/nologin default shell behavior has been
recently added to the freedesktop bugzilla:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44408
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Craig White wrote:
>> On Thu, 2011
I finally added a bug for this to the Fedora bugzilla:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=771284
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Joachim Backes
wrote:
> On 12/23/2011 09:46 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Joachim Backes
>> wrote:
>
e, indeed, scanned and indexed. Be nice if
they'd let me look in their indexes for that e-mail that my calibrated
eyeball filter missed last week before dumping the spambox. (I have a
copy of the message, but I like to keep the envelopes around for a
while.)
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vulnerability just
waiting to happen.
> Poses this that what GID=100 are still "normal user" GID and may be
> used as primary (and only) user group ID?
Probably something they forgot to change. On the other hand, if you
have a default user group, whether assigned primary or secondary
vulnerability just
waiting to happen.
> Poses this that what GID=100 are still "normal user" GID and may be
> used as primary (and only) user group ID?
Probably something they forgot to change. On the other hand, if you
have a default user group, whether assigned primary or secondary
Ls were added
to any large distribution of Unix.
Having every login user in its own primary group also helps when you
want to do certain kinds of sandboxing using sudo.
You apparently don't like to do things that way.
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To
On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 3:02 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:43:30 +0900
> Joel Rees wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Joel Rees
>> wrote:
>> > [...]
>> >>> Also, Gnome's fallback has the same issues
people like Linda to
help in the usability testing department. She can be a useful
influence here if we'll let her.
(And being useful is good therapy, but that's not really relevant here, is it?)
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On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Patrick Lists
wrote:
> On 30-12-11 07:29, Joel Rees wrote:
>>
>> Reading her posts often reminds me of trying to teach my sisters how
>> to use something on the computer. All of them at once, on a day when
>> they definitely have their
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