** Summary changed:
- kworker consumes 100% and notebook unusable after an ethernet link down and
link up event
+ kworker consumes 100% CPU and machine is unusable after an Ethernet link
down/up event
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** Attachment added: "gziped full kernel log"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-signed-hwe-6.8/+bug/2076545/+attachment/5804893/+files/kern.log.gz
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** Description changed:
I have got a somewhat unstable internet connection since years. So far
it didn't caused extra problems, but since 1-2 days (I cannot tell
exactly) I have a strange and annoying experience. I can even simulate
this 100% by unplugging the ethernet cable and then plugg
** Attachment added: "More detailed kernel log about/around the event"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-signed-hwe-6.8/+bug/2076545/+attachment/5804862/+files/kernlog.txt
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Public bug reported:
I have got a somewhat unstable internet connection since years. So far
it didn't caused extra problems, but since 1-2 days (I cannot tell
exactly) I have a strange and annoying experience. I can even simulate
this 100% by unplugging the ethernet cable and then plugging it back
Kernel log relevant part:
Apr 5 15:37:00 rygel kernel: [ 2925.004224] pcieport :00:01.0: PME:
Spurious native interrupt!
Apr 5 15:37:25 rygel kernel: [ 2949.648804] pcieport :00:01.0: PME:
Spurious native interrupt!
Apr 5 15:37:36 rygel kernel: [ 2960.804915] pcieport :00:01.0: PM
Probably not related, but "nvidia-driver-535" was mentioned above in a
post. I'm now using ppa:vanvugt/mutter and it seems to be fine, but apt
also upgraded nvidia driver from 525 to 535 (maybe not related at all
just the new nvidia driver was presented now?). Since then I have hard
lock-ups on my
I'm sorry for the flood of comments, but it happened again two times
already, and I guess I see a pattern when it occurs: if I use the
computer to browse the web, watch some videos, or writing some C program
with vim, or whatever, it's fine. However if I let it alone for more
than 5-10 mins or so (
Public bug reported:
I'm using Nvidia's driver on Ubuntu 22.04.4 without major issues since
about a year (or so) on this DELL Latitude 5531 notebook (01:00.0 3D
controller: NVIDIA Corporation TU117M [GeForce MX550] (rev a1)).
Yesterday, I had an ubuntu update, so I use driver 535 now, the previous
** Attachment added: "Not sure if it helps, it's the reported gathered with
nvidia-bug-report.sh"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-535/+bug/2060303/+attachment/5761734/+files/nvidia-bug-report.log.gz
** Description changed:
I'm using Nvidia's driver on Ubun
I've fetched some older versions (again, I am running 22.04.4) of
packages gir1.2-mutter-10 libmutter-10-0 and mutter-common and made them
into hold status. After a very ugly and dangerous move, namely editing
/var/lib/dpkg/status by hand (to comply the dependencies of gnome-shell
which was broken
I have similar problem. I'm currently using Ubuntu 22.04.4 LTS (x86_64).
Since some days (maybe three?) I see very odd behaviour from programs
running in gnome-terminal (or xfce4-terminal if it does not matter, I
guess the problem is not the terminal itself but VTE probably or
similar? - no problem
I'm using 20.04.2 LTS (focal), I can also confirm the problem exists
there with Xorg and gnome-shell (no idea about 20.10 and/or Wayland
though).
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It seems update 435.21-0ubuntu0.18.04.3 of nvidia-kernel-source-435
fixed the problem for me, at least!
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Title:
nvidia-kernel-source-435 435.21-0
Public bug reported:
After a "usual" upgrade, my system did not give any sign of life on the
monitor. I tried to boot an older kernel, it worked. Then I discovered,
that the problem that nvidia drivers cannot be built against kernel
linux-image-5.4.0-42-generic, which could be the problem.
from /
Public bug reported:
When I try to lock the screen, gnome-shell seems to crash, always since
two days or so (I update daily basis). crash file is attached. x86_64
Ubuntu 20.04 LTS
ProblemType: Bug
DistroRelease: Ubuntu 20.04
Package: gnome-shell 3.36.2-1ubuntu1~20.04.1
ProcVersionSignature: Ubunt
** Description changed:
After typing ipset (and a space of course) I always get various syntax
error messages if I press key TAB for completion. Interestingly I get
different errors on different machines, for example:
18.04 server:
# ipset
So I typed "ipset" and a space, and when
Public bug reported:
After typing ipset (and a space of course) I always get various syntax
error messages if I press key TAB for completion. Interestingly I get
different errors on different machines, for example:
18.04 server:
# ipset
So I typed "ipset" and a space, and when I press TAB, I see
Public bug reported:
I've upgraded my Ubuntu 18.10 to 19.04. Everything looked okey, however
if I enter gnome shell "overview mode" I cannot leave it anymore, I
can't select any window, type to search etc, and all my windows are in
the foreground, covering the search bar etc, but not possible to s
I also see these on 18.04 bionic server installs ...
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Title:
Annoying log message "DIGEST-MD5 common mech free"
To manage notifications about thi
Still happens time to time, even with fresh 18.10 install. It's a
"miracle" that it's such an old bug, but still hits us :(
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Title:
gnome-shell mo
Lenovo ThinkPad L580:
$ cat /sys/bus/serio/devices/serio1/firmware_id
PNP: LEN2037 PNP0f13
$ dmesg | fgrep -i elan
[0.00] Command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-4.18.0-11-generic
root=UUID=8ee3c188-2063-45de-b270-2db3df928e18 ro psmouse.elantech_smbus=0
quiet splash vt.handoff=1
[0.
OK, the touchpad issue is not related at all, there is a kernel driver
explanation of that. Now it works (the touchpad) but still, the
mentioned dbus error message occurs from time to time, not so consistent
though now.
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@Kai-Heng Feng : Wow, it fixed the issue for me at least, on Lenovo
Thinkpad L580. :) :)
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Title:
Elantech - Touchpad not working after upgrading
I have Lenovo L580. And a similar issue. The install image written to
the USB drive worked fine, but after installation touchpad simply did
not work. I've tried everything suggested (utilizing some google
searches ...), including kernel parameters, blacklisting various i2c hid
modules, and all the
** Attachment added: "crash file from /var/crash"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/1804027/+attachment/5214228/+files/_usr_bin_dbus-daemon.1000.crash
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** Attachment added: "core dump file"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus/+bug/1804027/+attachment/5214227/+files/apport_core_0k2jxx4e
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Public bug reported:
At almost every boot and login after a while I get a "Ubuntu 18.10 has
experienced an internal error" window. However it says, coredump size is
too small (see attached screenshot).
Also no idea if it is related but touchpad of the notebook does not work
only external mouse. T
Public bug reported:
# lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Ubuntu
Description:Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS
Release:18.04
Codename: bionic
# journalctl | fgrep assertion
Nov 11 01:34:14 logserver syslog-ng[11733]:
ERROR:../../lib/logpipe.h:314:log_pipe_queue: asser
Maybe it's something to do with dynamicmaps.cf, since it seems that file
always changes throughout the upgrade of postfix related packages?
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Title:
By the way, I still have the suspect that something other is problematic
here as well!!
Now, I tried to upgrade a test server, where those alias maps are NOT
empty, by will. So no error messages shown with the postinst script of
the package or anything, everything seems to be ok.
Still, after upg
I don't know too much about Debian bug reporting, but anyway I've tried
here:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908221
** Bug watch added: Debian Bug tracker #908221
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=908221
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Btw, maybe an even better solution for that "if":
if postconf -h alias_database | grep -q '^mysql:' ; then
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Title:
postfix-mysql package upgrade
Public bug reported:
I wanted to upgrade my bionic system. Some postfix related packages has
been upgraded:
# apt-get upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages will be upgraded:
base
Surely, it's still a question for me, that ovirt-guest-agent really can
work without the GUI-oriented usermode package. I've created a "fake"
usermode package just to provide the dependency and everything seems to
work OK though there are minor odd things (ie, check-new-release always
hogs the CPU
Public bug reported:
We use servers as servers, ie no libx11, libgtk or anything GUI related
can be installed as per policy. However we uses virtualisation and we
need install ovirt-guest-agent. Now, it seems, with 18.04 if I want to
install ovirt-guest-agent it has a dependency on usermode packag
Removing the scsi_mod.use_blk_mq=1 from /etc/default/grub and the
mentioned udev rule file, and regenerating initial ramdisk + reboot
seems to do the trick, now everything works with default (cfq) I/O
scheduler.
Before this comment, and the problem:
# cat /sys/block/sda/queue/scheduler
[bfq] non
Ok, I will investigate as soon as I have time. By the way, I am
wondering if using BFQ as I/O scheduler can be the problem, ie:
# cat /etc/udev/rules.d/60-schedulers.rules
## set noop scheduler for non-rotating disks
ACTION=="add|change", KERNEL=="sd[a-z]", ATTR{queue/rotational}=="0",
ATTR{queu
[22596.884250] sysrq: SysRq : This sysrq operation is disabled.
I got this, if I try to trigger those sysreq events by echoing t/m into
that procfs file. I'm anyway curious how sysreq stuffs can be
enabled/disabled, since I seldom use ALT-SYSREQ- combos as well, and
many of them just reports t
Public bug reported:
I've upgraded to 18.04. Since then, it's impossible to use thumb-drives.
If I try, on the first write operation, that operation hangs. Trying to
issue a 'sync' command that hangs too. After a while (some minutes or
so?) I see the following in kernel log / dmesg (see later). It
It seems, the problem does not shows up if some compiles vice without
gtk3 UI.
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Title:
All the binaries in the vice package crashes with SIGSEGV
It seems there is something wrong with GLEW. At least I reported to the
issue to the VICE team, and:
https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/bugs/964/
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Now I've compiled VICE from source ("manually", with tarball from the
official site etc), and the same result, crashing, with gdb reports
things like this one (note, it was tested on two different machines
running 17.10 both with official vice package and my own compiled one,
always things like thi
Public bug reported:
It seems, with Ubuntu 17.10/Wayland/64 bit at least, _all_ of the
emulators within the VICE package (emulators for various Commodore 8 bit
systems) crashes. All of them seems to be connected with
XQueryExtension() somehow. I've tried x64 (Commodore 64 emulator), xvic
(Commodor
*** This bug is a duplicate of bug 1288655 ***
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1288655
So, as thinking on this, I must say, maybe this is my mis-interpretation
of the problem. Maybe not the colour prompt causes this, but if I use a
newer (or ssh into a newer) ubuntu box versus ssh into an olde
*** This bug is a duplicate of bug 1288655 ***
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1288655
I don't know how to tell, but it seems the bug happens when the prompt
has effect on the title of the window. What I mean here: opening a
gnome-terminal with a colourful PS1 causes this. However if I ssh int
Public bug reported:
I have "Alternative switch to next source" option set to "Right Alt
(while pressed)" in "Input source options" within "Region & Language" in
settings. I use US kbd layout, but often I need my national characters,
so I use the "while pressed" solution since years, it's much fas
Oh, by the way, it's often happens after locking then unlocking the
screen though! It often fixes the problem too (if it was before). But
not always ...
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This bug still affects me now, upgraded to the to-be-released 17.10
(artful). I was a die hard text only user of Linux systems for a while,
so I still configure system to "emulate" something like this, ie
ALT+F1...F8 to switch between workspaces. However, ALT-F5 does not
_always_ works. Sometimes i
Public bug reported:
It seems every SDL2 based software has problem now with 2.0.6 release of
libsdl. In my case it's only an annoying message, but as far as I see,
it can be more serious as well. I've reported the problem and they noted
it has been fixed recently. Please - if possible - make this
Same problem with powerdns, I can't run it with apparmor profile,
because it complains:
operation="sendmsg" info="Failed name lookup - disconnected path"
error=-13 profile="/usr/sbin/pdns_server" name="run/systemd/journal/dev-
log" pid=17236 comm="pdns_server" requested_mask="w" denied_mask="w"
fs
I've just noticed: it seems it only happens if the shell prompt is
colourfull. if it's not, there is no shrinking of the gnome-terminal
window height when cycling between fullscreen and windowed mode ...
Interesting!!
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Public bug reported:
It's 17.04 64 bit Ubuntu, wayland+gnome-shell. I have key F11 configured
to toggle between fullscreen and windowed mode. Just noticed, that every
time I press F11 to get full screen, then F11 to get back windowed mode,
the window becomes one line shorter ... Continuing this I
Nice to hear, that is fixed in 17.10 already. Well, I've just read many
discussion on this topic. For example MPV issue: https://github.com/mpv-
player/mpv/issues/139 windows has no border. It seems for me, projects
like mpv waiting for some server side window decoration to be done,
instead of imp
Public bug reported:
Running gnome-shell + wayland on ubuntu 17.04 here. If I have a "legacy"
(X11) application, like firefox or xterm (running with Xwayland, I
guess) I can resize its window normally, ie mouse shape changes into
resize-signaling shape near the window borders and I can do the job.
Ok, I've found a workaround, to specify this kernel parameter in GRUB:
video=VGA-1:1920x1080@60
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Title:
Wrong resolution, and "unknown monitor"
With wayland, the problem is even worse, with X11 I could at least use
xrandr to set the correct resolution. This is not an option with wayland
though, so I cannot even use my desktop normally, I guess I should
downgrade ubuntu, since no way to use the machine in a sane way anymore,
and not so much
With wayland, the problem is even worse, with X11 I could at least use
xrandr to set the correct resolution. This is not an option with wayland
though, so I cannot even use my desktop normally, I guess I should
downgrade ubuntu, since no way to use the machine in a sane way anymore,
and not so much
I don't know anything about gnome internals, but with trying to strace,
I see this:
getpeername(2, 0x7ffec62742e0, 0x7ffec62742dc) = -1 ENOTSOCK (Socket
operation on non-socket)
which is odd, since stderr is not a socket usually, indeed ...
Other than that, the mentioned error message can be fou
Public bug reported:
gnome-shell --replace does not work and reports:
(gnome-shell:15848): mutter-WARNING **: Can't initialize KMS backend:
Could not get session ID: No such file or directory
(gnome-shell:16495): mutter-WARNING **: Can't initialize KMS backend: Could not
get session ID: No suc
Please tell me, if you need further information of some kind of co-
operation to resolve this issue. Thanks a lot, in advance.
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Title:
Wrong reso
Another interesting finding with grep'ing around in /var/log for VGA-1:
root@vega:/var/log# grep VGA-1 syslog
May 4 14:27:10 vega unity-settings-[1644]: unable to get EDID for
xrandr-VGA-1: unable to get EDID for output
And maybe the even more interesing part in /var/log/gpu-manager.log
log_fi
I'm really not an xrandr / etc wizard, but what looks strange for me,
that it seems something reports "VGA-1" when all the examples on the Net
(and in xrandr man page) mentions "VGA". Even in Xorg.log:
root@vega:~# fgrep VGA /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[25.034] (II) modeset(0): Output VGA-1 has no mon
Public bug reported:
I've never had a problem like this before. Now, after upgraded to Ubuntu
17.04 it was already strange to see the boot logo in a kind of low and
fuzzy resolution. And it remained for the LightDM login screen, also for
the desktop after logged on. System setting -> Display repor
Public bug reported:
I always get this:
Preparing to unpack .../ttf-mscorefonts-installer_3.4+nmu1ubuntu2_all.deb ...
mscorefonts-eula license has already been accepted
Unpacking ttf-mscorefonts-installer (3.4+nmu1ubuntu2) over (3.4+nmu1ubuntu2) ...
Processing triggers for fontconfig (2.11.94-0ub
** Changed in: linux (Ubuntu)
Status: Incomplete => Opinion
** Changed in: linux (Ubuntu)
Status: Opinion => Confirmed
** Description changed:
Ubuntu 16.04 on 64 bit produces hissing sound (just by my - far from
being 'musical' - ear, it sounds like a sinus wave with frequency
Sorry about my English, so I meant that I didn't own the machine itself,
so I have no experience just since I use that PC, and it's only two
weeks or so. Also, I've just discovered that the annoying sound is there
even right after switching the machine on, without any OS loaded too.
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$ uname -a
Linux oxygene 4.8.0-040800-generic #201610022031 SMP Mon Oct 3 00:32:57 UTC
2016 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
The really same. Moreover, this hissing sound can be heard with BIOS/etc
too, without any OS, it's even more louder then.
The issue started with this machine, I didn't have
Quite odd ... But it seems there is sometimes a louder hissing sound,
but the other one is more frequent issue: a not so loud but annoying
one. This second _seems_ to be cause (I have no idea about the reason!!)
by an XBox 360 controller. If it's plugged to the USB port, the sound
can be heard in s
Public bug reported:
Ubuntu 16.04 on 64 bit produces hissing sound (just by my - far from
being 'musical' - ear, it sounds like a sinus wave with frequency about
1KHz or so) on headphones. Interestingly, after boot this does not
happen and usually can be hear only after the first application which
It's a problem that it's a production server, I cannot play too much
with it :-/ It was a freshly installed 16.04LTS according to the
operators who did the install. According to the logs, the problematic
kernel was:
Linux version 4.4.0-34-generic (buildd@lgw01-20) (gcc version 5.3.1
20160413 (Ubun
I've also attached some files, with full dmesg output, uname -a, lspci,
version info, and the apparmor profile for apache2.
** Attachment added: "Logs"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1615082/+attachment/4724162/+files/bug-info.tgz
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Public bug reported:
I've used aa-logprof to find more things out to be added to my custom
apache2 apparmor file. Since PHP created tons of files in /tmp in the
form of /tmp/php* I've decided to add this:
/tmp/php* rw,
I'm not sure if it caused the problem, but after this
/etc/init.d/apparmor re
Public bug reported:
I've configured (with network manager) a VPNC connection, address only,
ie "split tunnel" mode. However, after connecting, though everything
works, I am unable to resolve "internal" domains having "pseudo" TLD as
.intra in names. Note, that I set up a single DNS server for the
Indeed, I use tons of terminals in my work, and I often need
maximize/unmaximize operations, now it makes my life quite hard :(
This was my original bug-report, which is now considered as duplication of this
bug: #1573563
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I've attached some screen shots, if it's more understandable than my
not-so-perfect English, sorry about that.
Moreover, I had the suspect that it can be a generic window manager
issue more, rather than gnome-terminal specific problem, but starting
the KDE console (konsole) its fullscreen toggle f
** Attachment added: "Screenshot after pressing F11 again, not OK!"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/1573563/+attachment/4642825/+files/Screenshot%20from%202016-04-22%2014-10-13.png
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Bugs, whi
Public bug reported:
I use tons of terminal windows (gnome-terminal) all the time for various
tasks. Thus, it's important for me to be able to go into full screen
mode (F11) - if I need more attention or space and switch back later.
I haven't got any problem with this in previous Ubuntu versions,
** Attachment added: "Screenshot after pressing F11 (fullscreen, OK)"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/1573563/+attachment/4642824/+files/Screenshot%20from%202016-04-22%2014-09-59.png
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Public bug reported:
My problem seems to be rather specific. I develop an emulator for a 8
bit computer with SDL2, capable of running on Linux and Windows. I use
cross-compiling with mingw for Windows, and wine to test it. It seems
the problem occurs when I try the windows build, with full screen
I have this bug (also as bug 1508219 which is now marked as duplication
of this report) on three different machines, each of them were verified
via ssh, that indeed, compiz uses 100% CPU when screen is locked. All of
them is up-to-date 15.10, one notebook (intel), one desktop (also
integrated inte
Sorry, one more important thing to note: the 100% CPU usage goes almost
instantly after locking screen regardless of "freshly booted" system or
switched on since a week, the memory leaking (what I talked about in my
previous comment) is just another interesting fact which may or may not
be related,
I am not sure if it's related, but another interesting fact: I left my
Ubuntu box switched on at my workplace, though I can access it via ssh
(and sshfs to mount my home from there). It was more than a week, not to
go to work, more than usual. Screen is locked of course. One thing, the
usual: with
Meanwhile, I've upgraded to 15.10. Now the system _mostly_ works, but
let's say about every 5th boot the system freezes with black screen if
systemd is used. Upstart always work. Interestingly in most cases
systemd works as well, but not always. I cannot find any reason about
this always changing b
I'm sorry but now it *seems* for me, that it's not firefox, but maybe
compiz related (hmmm, or both?), please read the newer bug report of
mine: bug 1516308
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Public bug reported:
Tested on three different machines upgraded to Ubuntu 15.10 recently.
All of them are 32 bit systems, two of them are intel based integrated
GPU (on of them is notebook) with intel CPU, and one is AMD APU equipped
machine with the binary driver (so because of this, I don't thi
Public bug reported:
It's a bit fuzzy report, I have to admit, and more like a feeling, as I
can't check it out too well, but I haven't experienced that in previous
Ubuntu versions before upgrading to Wily.
I have firefox running with many tabs open. The CPU usage (without too
much active pages,
Quite ugly "bug" :( I had the habit "since ages" (ehhh) to work in
terminal windows, and copy&paste URLs etc. It worked nicely with a quick
double click on the URL which does not work anymore after upgrade to
Wily :( I understand that it was not meant to select URLs anyway (and
not a perfect soluti
Some tests:
Part of the output of command "ip link" :
On a 15.04 system, after connecting to the VPNC, it works nicely,
without any workaround:
tun0: mtu 1412 qdisc
pfifo_fast state UNKNOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 500
After connecting to VPNC on a machine upgraded to wily, it does NOT
It seems to be an MTU problem, indeed, as after this command:
ip li set mtu 1200 dev tun0
everything works again! I am just curious now: no modification on the
VPN terminator/network/everything, the change was only at my side to
upgrade to wily, and it worked out-of-the-box, without any workaroun
Public bug reported:
I've used the same vpnc config (set up with network manager) since
years, without issues. After upgraded to wily, it does not work anymore
though. The VPN connection itself is established, however opening a web
page just stalls. Using ssh through the VPN connection also work,
The mentioned patch by Joe Clifford (joeclifford) seems to be OK. I've
downloaded source of pidgin-sipe (with apt-get source), also I applied
the patch. After building a deb package and installing everything worked
again with Ubuntu 15.04 (32 bit).
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Indeed, I have the same problem with Ubuntu 15.04
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1488336
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** Summary changed:
- Xserver does not start on boot (low-graphics mode)
+ Xserver does not start on freezes with systemd + lightdm
** Summary changed:
- Xserver does not start on freezes with systemd + lightdm
+ Xserver does not start or freezes with systemd + lightdm
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You received this bug
This bug seems to be still valid, but its behaviour is somewhat
different at least for me. When I first noticed this, X did not start at
all, and it dropped to the screen to allow to choose for low graphics
mode, exit to console, etc. Now, X starts however it freezes in a way
that no keyboard can b
It seems though it can be guessed more or less what can cause problems
(ie thinkpad + lightdm + systemd) the exact details are not the same,
and some other conditions can/do count as well. Also the "not always"
factor sometimes, kinda odd.
However, as bug 1340964 if often referenced for me, and it
For me, it's kinda odd. It seem to work (and worked even some day ago),
then trying again (boot again) and it does not work again then ...
Recently it seems to be quite unpredictable. But it can be a reason that
sometimes I attach external monitor via the VGA D-SUB connector, but
sometimes I don't.
Ok, I was too fast ... Tried again: now, X server starts and logic
screen is shown (though with the default background not the one based on
the last user logged in) but keyboard does not usable and no mouse
cursor either. Still, choosing upstart seems to work!
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Today I tried again and now it seems system boots normally, I can log
in, with lightdm+systemd. I guess some of the updates solved the
problem, but it would be useful to hear that it's not only me ...
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ThinkPad L520: exactly the same as professordes wrote: systemd + lightdm
does not work, dropping to console login freezes (interestingly it
"worked" some days ago when I managed to use service lightdm stop/start
to "cure" the problem at least so systemd could be used with some extra
work though, no
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