hing that will be blindingly obvious once I see it....
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[me]
>> [...trying to use the Sun kbd driver on i386...hackery...]
>> [...builds...links...doesn't work..."what's wrong?"...]
[uwe]
> MI com driver has no idea it can have children.
> Cf. sys/arch/sparc64/dev/com_ebus.c that calls MI com_attach_sub
h to be
competent to remark on whether the comments are accurate). The major
difference I see between what I think you're suggesting and the sparc64
way is the use of a userland utility versus autoconf machinery.
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ed on
an LK201 and Sun type-3 I have handy.
All of those are negatives for me. For someone who prefers the DEC
way, I daresay, they'd be positives. I have are numerous other issues
with the LK201, but they're all minor and/or fixable in software.
/~\ The ASCII
n on completely Sun-unrelated ports, it is of little
practical significance to me now.
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at ofisa with wdc_ofisa
attach wdc at pcmcia with wdc_pcmcia
com is another example. So is le. I'm sure there are plenty of
others. In some cases they don't even need the "with" stuff, I think.
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ISA
and one PCMCIA).
But a single node, a single instance of a driver (eg, ne0), always has
at most one parent (exactly one, I think, except for the autoconf root
most ports call mainbus).
To put it another way, the autoconf tree is a tree, not a dag.
/~\ The ASCII
ch is
parented to wsdisplay _and_ wskbd (and possibly wsmouse as well; I'm
not sure how I'd prefer to hook wsmouse into it).
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d have missed something.
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d be no need to explicitly mention the case
where path1 names a directory, because it has to "[name] an existing
file".
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ttempts. Again, nothing
nonsensical; pretty much everything about symlinks can potentially vary
with the filesystem; this is no different.
What am I missing?
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id things because it would also prevent
you from doing clever things.
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confident it has no use, and I *definitely* am not sure enough nobody
will ever find a use to think it's a good idea to actively forbid it.
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ntrolled. (Though I suppose symlink(2) on an existing writable link
could be made to do it. But I'm not sure if VOP_SYMLINK on an existing
link should do it)
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land, but
that putting the actual removal in the filesystem makes sense.
I'm not sure whether I'd prefer to do it with a new and idiosyncratic
syscall, a vfs.something sysctl, some sort of filesystem-level analog
to ioctl, or what.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
m -rf (even if I'm right about it being
possible to make it safe against hostile users), and (c) get
directories right.
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My apologies for spreading misinformation.
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of processes required
by the number of availalble file descriptors.
It's got some problems, of course. But I don't think vulnerability to
symlink games such as you outline is one of them.
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on
only, show 2004 (x1), 2005 (x7), 2006 (x5), 2007 (x1), 2008 (x1), 2010
(x5), and 2011 (x1).
The rate at which this stuff appears is low enough that it could
actually all be explained by stuff being left behind on crashes.
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X A
above is; I've been speaking in ideal generalities. (My idea of ideal
generalities, that is, of course.)
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ally shut it off entirely.
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bug directly
to be well below the expected cost (both immediate and in down-the-road
maintenance) of pervasive manual uglification of code to "fix"
non-errors.
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ngs off (the way real kernel compiles apparently do anyway) or
uglify the code to work around the warning [ok, my phrasing]. I
believe the former is better, because in my experience the mistake the
warning warns about is anything but common.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
you like).
Not only that, but even without threading, there are at least two ways
I can think of offhand that a file descriptor, once opened, can end up
in multiple processes' open file tables: fork() and SCM_RIGHTS. (There
are probably others, too.)
/~\ The ASCII
ight thing is. Probably just use locking of
some sort, even if just a big lock around the bulk of the driver's
routines.
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he various criteria allow potentially malicious users to mount such
filesystems, the userland process could just flat-out *ignore* the
kernel's requests when it feels like it; if it wedges the whole system
when it does that, this strikes me as a potential..issue.)
/~\ The ASCII
va_* calls within the implementation of foo(). (If you expect
to use vprintf or relatives to consume the first ... list, this
involves unwarranted chumminess with the stdarg implementation. But if
you walk the first ... list yourself, it's no problem at all.)
/~\ The ASCII
g (I think I used %@). It was easy, but I
never used it very much and never rolled it forward (it was 1.4T I
added it to). Never even got around to adding it to -Wformat.
As for using nonstandard formats, don't we already do that with %b?
/~\ The ASCII
sure; you outline
conditions under which you see misbehaviour but you don't say what the
misbehaviour actually is.
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f the system from one
another and ease of changing if you want to run something else instead
strike me as the biggest ones.
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. But what's the motivation for increasing
NAME_MAX rather than decreasing MAXNAMLEN?
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ormation.
I'm sure other people have their own uses for long pathname components,
too, though I don't know of any offhand.
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ecially if it's a size that doesn't exist on that port. Is uint32_t
"32 bits" or "at least 32 bits"? THe former may well not exist on a
pdp10 port.
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but
I haven't found them. Not that I've put all _that_ much effort into
looking; finding needles in haystacks is not exactly my forte - unless
the needles are bugs and the haystacks are code.)
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was a PDP-8. I'm interested in NetBSD/pdp10 less for
personal nostalgia value than for the code cleanup it would enforce.
SIMH has PDP-10 support; that would probably be a useful resource for
anyone taking on a PDP-10 in an FPGA.
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does, I'd be happy to create and float a strawman draft.
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which permits automated userland software response to various common
> events.
Hmm, socket(AF_KMSGS,SOCK_STREAM,0)? Not that that's the abstraction,
just one possible way of implementing it.
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;t marked as rewrappable, it is hardly a UA fault to not rewrap it.
Again, I'll be manually repairing the damage for purposes of this email.
>> What about embedded? [...]
>> What about machines with multiple keyboard/screen heads [...]
> I'd argue that embedded is a degenerate ca
hose for whom it needs correction.
This is a case of Mail.app suckering its users into sending out
mislabeled mail without even telling them it's doing so.
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perhaps more properly called FFS, and I think using the "ufs"
name as part of something that is filesystem-independent is a mistake.
If nothing else, it will confuse humans.
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With a suitable sparse data structure, the memory cost
is..substantially lower.
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detached whenever a
1-in-1 test trips, long-lived systems _will_ lose their RNGs. I
think this is suboptimal.
Indeed, a hardware RNG that _didn't_ fail that test once in a while
would be suspect.
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time, since that will be boot time, not
after the system has been up for a while.
I also think that unconditionally panicking at boot time if the RNG
fails is possibly a bad idea; it makes it difficult-to-impossible to
boot manually and build a kernel with the RNG disabled. Of course, not
all admins
it's useful here - am I wrong?
And, finally, with reference to the membar_ops(3) page, what does it
mean for a load to "reach global visibility"?
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.
Does mutex_exit also implicitly push writes to main RAM, or whatever
else is necessary to make them visible to other CPUs? (A reordering
barrier does not necessarily imply a global visibility barrier.)
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n "this" CPU and invalidates or snoops on others) or not - you may
have seen my note to the list asking - but those are needed too; if
they are part of the mutex routines, then your skeleton code is
correct, though your explanation omits part of the reason why.
/~\ The ASCII
; (and the read barrier in mutex_enter) or issue an explicit barrier.
Yes, I got slightly careless. I should have said, mutex_exit on the
writing CPU plus mutex_enter on the reading CPU.
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cipe for nasty surprises when you try to run on other hardware.)
Welcome to SMP. :-รพ
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ate and/or invalidation in hardware (at
least optionally, and if it's optional then NetBSD runs the hardware in
that mode).
Correct? If so, that completely annuls the hairiest of my worries.
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kther_ filesystem interfaces that represent such things as
strings, I think they are far enough off that it is much too early to
try to design them in here.
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le tre
to full depth even if there aren't any more Makefiles for it to find.
I think the point still stands.
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>> [...] hash the user-specified filename and use that for the 'real'
>> name. Add some special fudgery so that readdir() works.
> Sounds like Windows long filenames...
That's pretty close to how Eunice did it, back when I used Eunice.
/~\ The ASCII
> [...], because the cisco doens't support 1000baseT HD.
Does half-duplex gigabit even _exist_? I thought gigabit required a
bunch of things, like auto-X and full-duplex and all four pairs, that
slower speeds don't. Am I just confused?
/~\ The ASCII Mou
n, I'm going to stick with the information-theoretical
point of view that you can't get more information out than you put in,
and call this "key a PRNG and then generate more bits of output than
there were in the key" implementation of the supposedly-strongly-random
device broken.
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"Because we can't do it well" is a really really bad reason to do it as
badly as possible.
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[I'm pulling together multiple mails from tls here. The second-level
quotes are from varying people; I've marked their authors according to
the info I have.]
[Mouse]
>> "Revealed to userland", of course.
>> Combined with the conservative approach to estimating
ere is in each "random" bit. (The latter is one reason for
whitening input bits as they are gathered.)
These random number generators are things like the turbulence inside
disk drives and the noise in sound input.
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t; devilishly hard to get right, and are susceptible to all sorts of
> environmental perturbations. Imagine what would happen if someone
> upgraded the disk to a flash disk or one with a large flash cache
You still need a true RNG (to seed your PRNG), though, or you get
predictabl
R_FILESYSTEM, it works according to
$REFERENCE; on $THIRD_FILESYSTEM, it always returns EOPNOTSUPP".
This is not to say that it shouldn't be cleaned up. Just that I don't
think it's actually nonconformant.
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broken-network-governance. So I'll confine myself
to saying my respnse is at
{ftp,http}://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/ccTLD-thoughts.txt for
anyone interested. (Actually, will be at; as I send this mail, I'm
still writing it - the draft is available at
.../ccTLD-thoughts-draft.txt a
>> [...]
> The short answer is that Mouse likes tilting at windmills. :-)
Eh. I think that is at least a little of a misstatement. I don't do
such things because I enjoy doing them. Quite the opposite.
I do them because I must.
I'm not entirely sure what I mean by that.
is wrong. (If so, I agree.)
> A cryptographic function where an 'N' bit output was as random as the
> 'N' bit input would not be a cryptographic function,
What is a "cryptographic function", here? It's not a phrase I
recognize as a technical term.
/~\ Th
blility
> of recovery less than one is as good as if it were zero.
That's not how I feel about it when I've lost a filesystem. I'll take
a filesystem with a nonzero probability of recovering something useful
from over one that guarantees to trash everything any day (other t
> You can make [your] point, but you won't win against Mouse as he just
> doesn't care outside of his wall [...]
Yeah.
I used to. Then I realized that it was sucking away a huge amount of
time, energy, and stress tolerance, for, as far as I could tell, zero
benefit to anyo
some_ chance the
filesystem will be irreparable. Memory, CPUs, disks, and the
transports between them do fail, occasionally transiently.
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to
mind.)
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same process.
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't go into the pros and cons of different ways of starting a new
> process to run something.
And there we are: under VMS, you don't - well, didn't, back in the '80s
when I used it - start a new process to run something. You ran it in
the same process you ran everythi
impossible, just, at worst,
ludicrously expensive. :-)
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portable way to do this stuff.
Sure - by instruction-level emulation if naught else. (Not a great
way, but it certainly can work.)
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onously with respect to syscalls it makes? If
so, what can trigger the creation of such a thing?
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in operational shape. I can't
reconstruct raid11, because it has no operational members. I can't
unconfigure it (preparatory to reconfiguring it), because it's held
open by raid0.
What's the right way to do this? Am I stuck needing a reboot?
/~\ The ASCII
t least one approach which likely would address this problem,
in cases where it _is_ A problem, already, and that's with no more than
a minute or so of thought.)
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.might be worth setting up a test machine I _can_
reboot casually. (The machine in question is a production machine and
I'm not in the right city to deal with it personally.)
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ount of a ramdisk
whose root inode is a FIFO rather than a directory.
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it's gone.. */
raidPtr->numSpare--;
return(0);
#endif
}
So, yeah, I don't see any way out of this but a reboot. :(
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, but
I'd like to have the doc against future possibility.
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t it.
That said, it's no skin off my nose. I've said my piece, and it won't
be affecting me, pragmatically, either way.
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research _is_. And I think the master tree for a
(supposedly-)production OS is not the place to be carrying out research
experiments, not even if another such OS is already doing it.
But my opinions seem to correlate negatively with NetBSD's these days.
/~\ The ASCII
n successful alpha test.)
Also, maintaining NetBSD-experimental and NetBSD-production doubles
certain overhead loads and increases (but not to 2x) others, thus
further (putatively) draining already-scarce resources
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numbers and suchlike.
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a sequence, be pushed to their
target at any particular time.
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as reached the target
(main or device memory) can be usefull".
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omponents, file contents, data flowing through
pipes and sockets - pretty much all places where octet strings of any
sort cross the user/kernel boundary.
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X or with kernels lacking this change
are not what I'm looking for here; for my purposes at the moment, those
are recognized and judged to be in the "don't care about" class.)
For the moment, 4.0.1 is of the most immediate practical import, but
I'd be interested in issues s
> Why not use O_DIRECTORY (which is part of -current) and add that to
> flags?
Backporting that might be a better alternative. What are its
semantics?
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inted out to me.
My current plan is to add O_DIRECTORY as well and make O_NOACCESS work
only when combined with it.
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ious before, I don't trust myself tonight.
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did, look at the three
commits ending with 5215f8f6551df407d7c87c8e6a80c7b04e9ee844 in the git
repo git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/netbsd-fork/4.0.1/src.)
> The fact that the O_ flags were not intelligently specified aeons ago
> so that a conversion is required is regrettable, but at
d for any path you
> can name, including devices and whatever else, without granting any
> access permissions at all. And, indeed, without calling device-level
> open() routines and such.
> This would also support what Mouse is trying to do,
Actually, I don't think it would, not withou
mple, using
fcntl to set the open mode from O_RDWR to O_RDONLY
If you don't want to go that way, you could just require that the fd
name a directory that's under the chroot in order for things to work.
Mouse
puts the information in the wrong
place. Is there any way it could be set as an option at mount time?
(That's a serious question; I don't know puffs enough to answer it.)
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rom post-unmount cleanup in
general to auto-remount of non-puffs filesystems. Perhaps it's
appropriate to add vfsctl(2), with an option which can set a "run this
on unmount" command? Or maybe a "wait for unmount" operation?
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
.
Actually, you don't. You need read access to the executable; whether
you get that access via a path or not is irrelevant.
/proc/curproc/file can address this; so could some kind of
get_RO_fd_on_my_executable().
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X Aga
ectory may not have any name, and if it does, it may not
be determinable by the user doing the exec.
> $ORIGIN is a poorly conceived interface, unfortunately.
Not as if _that_'s anything new.
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e sure what has really been written to the component
> label of sd3a?
Look at it?
That sounds flippant, but it's not. One of my beefs with raidframe is
that it doesn't include tools for that sort of thing. I wrote my own
as a result, which anyone interested is welcome to a copy of.
it, grow the
existing partition and then grow the filesystem
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be surprised if
there were fewer than 200 end users whose data this machine handles.
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the routing table.
I'm now going back to a source tree with sin_zero and will be adding
prominent comments to it explaining why sin_zero is necessary.
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s two network interfaces that support IP over
serial links too.)
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