Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-21 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/21/2013 08:55 AM, Charles Polisher wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 05:01:39PM -0400, John Stoffel wrote: Edward> Focus on reliability. ;-) No, you want to focus on restorability of your data in face of disaster. It does no good at all to have a reliable backup system if you can't get th

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-21 Thread Charles Polisher
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 05:01:39PM -0400, John Stoffel wrote: > Edward> Focus on reliability. ;-) > > No, you want to focus on restorability of your data in face of > disaster. It does no good at all to have a reliable backup system if > you can't get the data out. I don't recall seeing upt

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-17 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/13/2013 06:13 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: From: tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org] On Behalf Of Skylar Thompson Second, we depend LTO's data validation while data are being written to tape. I don't want to say "all devices," but I'll say all hard

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-14 Thread bergman
In the message dated: Sun, 12 May 2013 09:20:18 -0400, The pithy ruminations from "Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)" on <[lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability> were: => Without checking the internet, and before you listen to other peoples' => anecdotes or anything, I'd like to hear your gut feel, I want to

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-14 Thread Lawrence K. Chen, P.Eng.
d'Oh...forgot to hit send I use backuppc for transport, it does tar, rsync, rsync server, smbclient, ftp It does checksums of some sort, haven't delved into detailsbut I was having a problem of bitrot (and ext4 corruption) on my old backuppc server, so it would notice files in its

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Zack Williams
On May 13, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Jack Coats wrote: > > My only issue is that only one copy seems to be kept at Crashplan. Yes I > have used it. Sometimes the copy on their server gets corrupted, and they > depend on you sending a new uncorrupted version in the next backup, after the > issue is

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Miles Fidelman
Iain Morris wrote: This may get some chuckles, but I've had decent luck using Crashplan's free client to back up some small offices with diverse systems to a linux server. You don't get snapshots over time, but if all you need is an additional copy for backup, it's quite flexible and open to

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Miles Fidelman
Nathan Hruby wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: rdiff-backup Use currently for TB's of file data. Seemingly bullet proof, wish it was maintained better. Likewise, though not quite TBs of data. Use it with backupninja (utility) and ninjahelper (gui).

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
> From: tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org] > On Behalf Of Iain Morris > > This may get some chuckles, but I've had decent luck using Crashplan's free > client to back up some small offices with diverse systems to a linux > server.  You don't get snapshots over time,

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Chuong Dao
g] On Behalf Of Paul Heinlein Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 1:24 PM To: LOPSA Technical Discussions Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability On Sun, 12 May 2013, Skylar Thompson wrote: > On 05/12/2013 10:26 AM, Michael Tiernan wrote: >> On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Skylar Thomps

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Jack Coats
My only issue is that only one copy seems to be kept at Crashplan. Yes I have used it. Sometimes the copy on their server gets corrupted, and they depend on you sending a new uncorrupted version in the next backup, after the issue is detected. There have been reports of folks doing a DR Restore,

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Jack Coats
><> ... Jack -- Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart... Colossians 3:23 "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate" - Henry J. Tillman "Anyone who has never made a mistake, has never tried anything new." - Albert Einstein "You don't manage people; you manage th

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Derek Monaghan
While I don't use it solely, I do have ~70TB being backed up using Crashplan ProE over a geographically dispersed area. Code42 has definitely made some significant progress over the past 18 months. No chuckles here. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Iain Morris wrote: > This may get some chuckles

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Iain Morris
This may get some chuckles, but I've had decent luck using Crashplan's free client to back up some small offices with diverse systems to a linux server. You don't get snapshots over time, but if all you need is an additional copy for backup, it's quite flexible and open to expansion offsite for fr

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Paul Heinlein
On Sun, 12 May 2013, Skylar Thompson wrote: On 05/12/2013 10:26 AM, Michael Tiernan wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Skylar Thompson wrote: > How do you define reliability? I think that that's a darned good question. Skylar's pair of points misses a key definition. As a guy fro

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Bill Bogstad
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: >> From: tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org] >> On Behalf Of Skylar Thompson >> >> I think checksumming has a place in backup/archive systems, but I'm not sure >> that end-to-end checksumming will all

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Bill Bogstad
!@**#@**@ - Sorry, I hit send before I typed in my response... On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Bill Bogstad wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) > wrote: >>> From: tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org] >>> On Behalf Of Skylar Thomps

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Ski Kacoroski
On 05/12/2013 10:26 AM, Michael Tiernan wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Skylar Thompson wrote: How do you define reliability? I think that that's a darned good question. Skylar's pair of points misses a key definition. As a guy from Keane that I used to work with said, no one cares a

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
> From: tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org] > On Behalf Of Skylar Thompson > > Second, we depend LTO's data validation while data are being written to > tape. I don't want to say "all devices," but I'll say all hard drives include data integrity, in the form of FE

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/13/2013 05:59 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: >What I think/could/ work, though, is if checksumming filesystems like ZFS >could expose the checksum data to user applications (like backup clients), The reason that's not possible is because the ZFS checksums don't relate to the files

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/13/2013 05:50 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: From: Skylar Thompson [mailto:skylar.thomp...@gmail.com] I've been a TSM admin for years, so I admit I'm biased, but at scale I don't think there is much competition to TSM. The advantage of the progressive incremental backup (basically,

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
> From: tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:tech-boun...@lists.lopsa.org] > On Behalf Of Skylar Thompson > > I think checksumming has a place in backup/archive systems, but I'm not sure > that end-to-end checksumming will allow sufficient scalability, at least with > current filesystem technology

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-13 Thread Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
> From: Skylar Thompson [mailto:skylar.thomp...@gmail.com] > > I've been a TSM admin for years, so I admit I'm biased, but at scale I > don't think there is much competition to TSM. The advantage of the > progressive incremental backup (basically, incremental-forever w/o every > doing a full) outw

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread John Stoffel
Warning, some cursing ahead, I got too wound up when replying to this... Edward> Without checking the internet, and before you listen to other peoples' Edward> anecdotes or anything, I'd like to hear your gut feel, I want to know what Edward> your natural instinct is. What do you think about th

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/12/2013 01:14 PM, Jack Coats wrote: IBM every few years seems to feel the need to change the billing method just to keep the market guessing about if things are 'legal' or not. Over the years I went thru several conversions of billing methods. The one I liked was pay for a license,

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Jack Coats
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Skylar Thompson wrote: > On 05/12/2013 10:21 AM, Jack Coats wrote: > >> >> Professionally I have long liked IBMs TSM Storage Manager product with >> the Disaster Recovery option, but that is out of the price range for most. >> >> > I've been a TSM admin for years,

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Brad Beyenhof
On May 12, 2013, at 10:26 AM, Michael Tiernan wrote: > On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Skylar Thompson > wrote: >> How do you define reliability? > > I think that that's a darned good question. Skylar's pair of points > misses a key definition. As a guy from Keane that I used to work with > s

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/12/2013 09:16 AM, Andrew Hume wrote: On May 12, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: Without checking the internet, and before you listen to other peoples' anecdotes or anything, I'd like to hear your gut feel, I want to know what your natural instinct is. What do you th

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/12/2013 10:21 AM, Jack Coats wrote: Professionally I have long liked IBMs TSM Storage Manager product with the Disaster Recovery option, but that is out of the price range for most. I've been a TSM admin for years, so I admit I'm biased, but at scale I don't think there is much compe

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/12/2013 10:26 AM, Michael Tiernan wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Skylar Thompson wrote: How do you define reliability? I think that that's a darned good question. Skylar's pair of points misses a key definition. As a guy from Keane that I used to work with said, no one cares ab

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Michael Tiernan
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Skylar Thompson wrote: > How do you define reliability? I think that that's a darned good question. Skylar's pair of points misses a key definition. As a guy from Keane that I used to work with said, no one cares about backups, they only care about restores. Isn

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Jack Coats
IMHO, all tools work and are a reasonable piece of a solution, and none are complete. Use any tools you feel comfortable with, but my suggestion is to use the old 3-2-1-0 approach. 3 copies of data 2 different media 1 copy offsite 0 test restores regularly Yes those are vague, but I have been ca

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Andrew Hume
On May 12, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: > Without checking the internet, and before you listen to other peoples' > anecdotes or anything, I'd like to hear your gut feel, I want to know what > your natural instinct is. What do you think about the reliability of the > fol

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Skylar Thompson
On 05/12/2013 06:20 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: Without checking the internet, and before you listen to other peoples' anecdotes or anything, I'd like to hear your gut feel, I want to know what your natural instinct is. What do you think about the reliability of the following tools

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Doug Hughes
On 5/12/2013 9:20 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: Without checking the internet, and before you listen to other peoples' anecdotes or anything, I'd like to hear your gut feel, I want to know what your natural instinct is. What do you think about the reliability of the following tools? If

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Brandon Allbery
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) < lop...@nedharvey.com> wrote: > Without checking the internet, and before you listen to other peoples' > anecdotes or anything, I'd like to hear your gut feel, I want to know what > your natural instinct is. What do you think about the

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Nathan Hruby
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 6:20 AM, Edward Ned Harvey (lopser) wrote: > rsync Totally awesome, caveat, I worked with the maintainer of rsync for a while, and he is also totally awesome. Some bias here. That said, this is a transfer mechanism, not a backup tool. > rsnapshot Have used and do use cu

Re: [lopsa-tech] Backup Reliability

2013-05-12 Thread Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)
The reason I ask is this: Recently I set out to accomplish a goal, and after exploring several options superficially, decided to explore rsnapshot and rdiff-backup in-depth as possible solutions to that goal. I am biased to believe they're both stable and reliable, just because they're included i