Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Robert Greene wrote: 2 Forces people to use one point miking Actually I don't understand why you list one point miking in the "Goods". :-) However, from quite early on, it was possible to use mono and stereo microphones and to encode them into UHJ with the Audio & Design Transcoder and into

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Robert, Lots to comment on here.  I seem to be compelled to address your negative or "not so good" observations: > Not so Good 2) Because one- point miking ignores transient time > of arrival differences as such , one of the basic cues of sonic perception > is suppressed explicitly That's not

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

> > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 10:05:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: newme...@aol.com > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please? > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Message-ID: <1343c.5791214f.3ca9b...@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Robert: > >>

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

ou, I had difficulty convincing PBF of this in his declining years. Others had other objectives. Once NRDC/BTG became involved, commercial objectives, in retrospect maybe unrealistic, were added, and we had to service these in order to finance what we really wanted

[Sursound] Immsound

Hi Came across this in the current edition of "Resolution" magazine - although the technology article seems extremely light as to how the system works psycoacoustically -as does their web-site http://immsound.com/home , although I've yet to read the white paper fully, it also seems rather light -

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

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Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

*/ /* UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' */ /*"http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/"; */ /*/ -- next part -

Re: [Sursound] Immsound

Umm - page 3 in the white paper; Algorithms include not only object-based audio processing but also higher-order Ambisonics and perceptual-based spatial sound processing. so it's both mpeg4 and HOA Dave On 02/04/2012 11:13, Rev Tony Newnham wrote: Hi Came across this in the

Re: [Sursound] Immsound

On 02/04/2012 11:13, Rev Tony Newnham wrote: Hi Came across this in the current edition of "Resolution" magazine - although the technology article seems extremely light as to how the system works psycoacoustically -as does their web-site http://immsound.com/home , although I've yet to read the

Re: [Sursound] Immsound

Thanks Dave - like I said, I've not had time to read it properly yet. Every Blessing Tony > -Original Message- > From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On > Behalf Of Dave Malham > Sent: 02 April 2012 11:53 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subje

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

"All you need to do is..," is the end of the line here. Commercially, you might as well try to sell a car where all you need to do to start it is to type in a ten digit code, sing Mary had a little lamb three times, and notify the post office. No one is going to go through this sort of thing in

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Because it is good! It keeps people from making really wrong meaningless recordings by spacing microphones a long way apart! Robert On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Eero Aro wrote: Robert Greene wrote: 2 Forces people to use one point miking Actually I don't understand why you list one point miking in t

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

I did say very explicitly transient time differences. Maybe I am missing something but these are not detected in Blumlein and I am not clear on why they would be in first order. I don't think this works. I could be wrong, however. But I think that in Blumlein stereo anyway, everyone agrees it doe

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

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Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Robert Greene wrote: Because it is good! Yes, it is good for many occasions. Because Nimbus Records devoted themselves strictly to one point miking, they didn't record any operas, as the singers, choir and the orchestra are scattered in a large area and you cannot get a good balance with one p

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

isonics before Gerzon gave out papers for the > > AES. > > > > Eero > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursou

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

*/ >> /* UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' */ >> /*"http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/"; */ >> /*/ >> &g

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Re marketing I am not a marketing expert but it seems to me that if anyone had really wanted Ambisonics to succeed, there would have been 1 presentations at shows for example. I have over the years encountered exactly one, by Meridian. Period. And 2 there would have been low priced or free demo d

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

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Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

On 2 Apr 2012, at 17:57, Eero Aro wrote: > Because Nimbus Records devoted themselves strictly to one point > miking, they didn't record any operas, as the singers, choir and the > orchestra are scattered in a large area and you cannot get a good > balance with one point miking. Sorry, that's bo

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

On 02/04/2012 16:34, Robert Greene wrote: It may be old but it is still all but universal in acoustic concert music. Maybe; but acoustic concert music is not the universe. But I can well see that the prevailing assumption on this list is that Ambisonics is only relevant to the reproduction o

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

I agree completely. The elephant in the room of audio and the reproduction of music is that in fact most people do not seem to WANT music at home that sounds like music in concerts. They say they do, but in practice they have been conditioned-- or perhaps they are just like that--to want somethin

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

Part of the point must surely be to reach the public eventually? Or is that somehow sort of declasse? Robert On Mon, 2 Apr 2012, Richard Dobson wrote: On 02/04/2012 16:34, Robert Greene wrote: It may be old but it is still all but universal in acoustic concert music. Maybe; but acoustic c

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

On 02/04/2012 17:21, Robert Greene wrote: .. It is really not too late at least for Trifield. If it is really better how will people know? It is only a minority who bother to go to demos and shows. , people would respond. (Actually at a Meridian demo I heard, I thought it sounded worse tha

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

Incidentally, I may come across as interested only in classical music(true) but popular music is the same way. Anyone watch the Country Music awards show(you cannot get more grass roots popular than that). See a lot of country music singers doing antiphonal calling from all over the auditorium? O

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

But lots of people already have five channel systems. What they do not have is a Trifield processor built in to their "receivers" to make stereo into three channel. They have other schemes to do this, but not Trifield. This seems to be an oversight--unless people do not feel that Trifield is real

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: for real performances, single point micing, even though not a must, should be adequate or superior for all events that are recorded in a venue in which a live audience is supposed to have a good listening experience of an equivalent performance. Ronald, the next time y

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

On 02/04/2012 17:49, Robert Greene wrote: Part of the point must surely be to reach the public eventually? He does it the time-honoured way - by public performances. A lot of them. It has in effect been on tour for a year plus, and on-going: http://www.trevorwishart.co.uk/encounters.html

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

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Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

On 2 Apr 2012, at 19:02, Eero Aro wrote: > Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: >> for real performances, single point micing, even though not a >> must, should be adequate or superior for all events that are recorded >> in a venue in which a live audience is supposed to have a good >> listening experience

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

we might as well admit it and enjoy ourselves! Mark Stahlman Brooklyn NY -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120402/595f5771/attachment.html> _

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Right on! There are still people who like music as it is, apparently. One besides me I mean. This thing about visual cues is hoary with age. It is also marlarkey. People do like to look at musicians, but the sound is what counts and the sound in the audience in a good spot is just fine. It is wha

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Hi My now rather old and basic Surround Sound RX actually does have a setting called "3-stereo", which presumably synthesises a centre channel from the stereo feed. I've never tried it - but I might give it a go next time I'm listening to music in the lounge. I normally either use Pro-Logic (for

[Sursound] Transient time differences

Since this has moved away from the point of the original query and to a technical issue, I'm starting a new thread.  Please forgive me if I get a bit pedantic here.  I'm still concerned that you mean something different by "transient time of arrival differences" than I do by ITDs. I'll repeat m

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

On 2 Apr 2012, at 18:21, Robert Greene wrote: > One really gets the strong impression that the Ambisonics > community has never seriously tried for public attention, > and perhaps did not even want it. The ambisonic community was always obsessed with perfection (N-th order stuff with zillion c

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

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Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Sorry I got bogged down in technical details. Thanks for pointing that out to me. What I should have said was that every recording on Ambisonia (~250, iirc) was available as a file that could be downloaded, burnt to CD, and played on a plain old 5.1 home theater system -- presumably just the kind

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

--On 02 April 2012 12:01 -0700 Aaron Heller wrote: Anyway, I put some files at As a reminder, all my files from Ambisonia, and all of John Leonard's, can be downloaded from: I've added a couple, and plan to add more soon. Paul -- Paul Hodges __

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

On 2 Apr 2012, at 20:53, newme...@aol.com wrote: > But, in the context of this list and this thread, these "larger forces" > must also be taken into account -- which, ultimately, lead to the perfectly > understandable reasons why Ambisonics could never and should never become a > "mass-mark

Re: [Sursound] Transient time differences

Thanks for the information. But here is my question in more precise form: Suppose you do a recording with ORTF(which of course has its own set of problems). Suppose you record a source that is say 15 degrees left of center. and that the source is a pistol shot(an impulse). Now the impulse will ar

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

British... ...and the entertainment industry is US-American, and consumer electronics (aside from Apple) is Japanese-Korean, made in China/Vietnam. Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- nex

Re: [Sursound] Transient time differences

I can't answer the question precisely without either doing an experiment or by doing many hours of calculations.  But one thing to consider is that the Blumlein recording won't fail to produce correct ITDs at frequencies above 700 Hz.  At least, not theoretically.  I can demonstrate by calculati

Re: [Sursound] Transient time differences

Well, don't get the idea that I do not like Blumlein. My once(actually twice as it happened) in a lifetime chance to record major orchestras with Kavi Alexander in charge, we did use Blumlein. And ORTF sounds a little colored as to timbre to me (we have some recordings made with identical mike pl

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

At 10:34 02/04/2012, Robert Greene wrote: It may be old but it is still all but universal in acoustic concert music. I think it is disingenuous to say that it is not. How many symphony concerts have you been to recently where the orchestra surrounded the audience. The other way around, sure. But

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

At 11:33 02/04/2012, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: >On 2 Apr 2012, at 17:57, Eero Aro wrote: > >> Because Nimbus Records devoted themselves strictly to one point >> miking, they didn't record any operas, as the singers, choir and the >> orchestra are scattered in a large area and you cannot get a goo

Re: [Sursound] OT: Spatial music

Two weeks ago, I saw a performance of Répons by Boulez. It was a canadian première, 30 years after its creation. The audience surrounded the orchestra, and six percussion instruments surrounded the audience, along with 6 speakers. It was happening in a very large room (an old boat factory), so the

[Sursound] Transient time differences

--- On Mon, 4/2/12, Eric Benjamin wrote: > In subsequent thinking about his question it occurs to me > that the plausibility, > not of the signals in the recording but of acoustic signals > that enter the > listener's ears, is an important indicator of whether the > listener finds the > repr

[Sursound] Transient time differences

--- On Mon, 4/2/12, Eric Benjamin wrote: > Don't take this to mean that I don't like ORTF recordings.  > I do like them.  The > best stereo recording that I have ever made was an ORTF > recording. But then, I'm > not a very good recording engineer.  I think that one of > the reasons that I lik

[Sursound] To all, RE: Dissertation

Wow what an amazing response! Thank you to you all, have been up for hours reading your links and exploring your comments. Absolutely agree Geoffrey that my working title needs clarity and focus. Thank you to all for your help. More information welcome...fascinating stuff! Much appreciated, Cara

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

At 12:42 02/04/2012, Robert Greene wrote: Incidentally you do not need to build a concert hall to record at one point. Try the WaterLily/St Petersburg/ Mahler 5 recording--pure Blumlein, sounds wonderful (conflict of interest statement: I did the surround sound part of this myself. But the stere

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

On 04/02/2012 06:33 PM, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: On 2 Apr 2012, at 17:57, Eero Aro wrote: Because Nimbus Records devoted themselves strictly to one point miking, they didn't record any operas, as the singers, choir and the orchestra are scattered in a large area and you cannot get a good bal

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

This is to my mind one of the basic problems of home audio-- the floor reflection, to have it or not. Some speakers do, most do in fact. But some do not, e.g. large line sources or large vertical planar radiators. This means that in effect one has two quite different kinds of sound generated by s

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

Sorry you don't like it. Apparently you do not like the sound of the St Petersburg orchestra since of course we did absolutely nothing to alter the balances. Maybe you have never heard them, or maybe you are used to hearing recordings that boost the violins up by miking them separately(which lot

Re: [Sursound] Can anyone help with my dissertation please?

PS Leaving my own evaluation aside, one of the things I have noticed about this type of recording is that there is a direct connection between how much people like it and how familiar they are with the actual sound of the particular orchestra in the particular hall. I did not have contact with

Re: [Sursound] Transient time differences

On 04/02/2012 08:37 PM, Eric Benjamin wrote: I believe that the "glockenspiel effect" that you describe arises because the localization cues experienced by the listener are different for ITDs than for ILDs. Because we primarily rely on ITDs at low frequencies and ILDs at high frequencies, if th

Re: [Sursound] Transient time differences

On 04/02/2012 11:51 PM, Eric Benjamin wrote: I can't answer the question precisely without either doing an experiment or by doing many hours of calculations. a good online tool that does many of the calculations relevant to ITD and ILD reproduction is available from helmut wittek at http://ha