Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:20:30PM +, S Walker wrote: If we legislate against job postings, it seems there isn't much legitimate content that remains relevant to this list. That's a very good point... (though there are postings re events &c.) Also, I think a diversity of places to post job

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 08/12/2016 14:00, Andy Robinson wrote: On 8 December 2016 at 09:29, James Broadhead wrote: Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so much ire. It seems to me that the real issue was a t

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016, Michael wrote: >IMO, Leave it as is, and ask people just for a bit of common politeness. >The list description says "there will be job ads". it's said that for years >(decades?) Anyone who doesn't like it doesn't actually have to join. (and >if they can't tolerate a high peak

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:20:30PM +, S Walker wrote: > Frankly if we didn't have people complaining about the job postings > each time they were made I suspect that is a rule everyone could get behind. :) > they'd be responsible for a negligible amount of list traffic. Ignoring discussion

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Andy, Speaking as one of the few who didn't say anything - because the ad wasn't relevant to me at the time - I personally see little reason to change the policy of allowing job ads on here. A handful of people complain once or twice a year, and the upshot is more posts and traffic as a result of

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

I've read comments on here supporting there being job postings as they are of use to the community (I think all of us like being able to afford to eat, right?), and I'd tend to agree with that. Maybe a better idea would be to put guidelines for job posting (e.g. not more than x frequency, containi

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

+1 for that. Then if you don't want job ads you can filter out content with that url. On 8 December 2016 at 15:16, Pete Graham wrote: > How about every job posting to this mailing list has to contain an > accompanying link to the full job ad on http://pythonjobs.github.io/? If > someone forgets

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

How about every job posting to this mailing list has to contain an accompanying link to the full job ad on http://pythonjobs.github.io/? If someone forgets we can politely remind them. Pete On 8 December 2016 at 14:06, Stestagg wrote: > I agree with John > > While recruitment emails don't bothe

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

I agree with John While recruitment emails don't bother me directly, the debates around allowing them are getting quite repetitive. My vote goes on a no job adverts policy. It's not clear to me that enforcement will be difficult. Do we really think that the pyuk recruiters will not honour this?

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 8 December 2016 at 09:29, James Broadhead wrote: > Personally, I'd be in favour of #2 - it allows the community to promote > positions internally, but avoids recruiter-mails which seem to trigger so > much ire. It seems to me that the real issue was a tiny number of list members being rude to

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 7 December 2016 at 21:14, John Lee wrote: > Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that > there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. > > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, > I think we should consider t

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

It gives the impression to me that being offensive pays off. But I am new here, I don't have a strong opinion. On 8 Dec 2016 09:53, "Gilberto Gonçalves" wrote: > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, >> I think we should consider the possibility that all tha

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

> > So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, > I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not > allow job ads (or not allow recruiters if you like -- but I think > simplicity is a virtue here). Then rogue job ads can be responded to on

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Having been on this list since 2004 I *think* I'm right in saying that there have never been sharp words on any subject EXCEPT recruiters. So though I've defended recruiters here before, and posted job ads myself, I think we should consider the possibility that all that's needed is to not allo

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Hello, This is my first message to this list and I am sad the first message is not about python... But as you're talking about code of conduct, I would like to suggest something that has worked very well for me in other groups I participate. Personally, I don't like CoC much, because it's easy to

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Once again, the volume of discussion on whether recruitment emails are appropriate for the list is larger than the volume of recruitment emails we get on this list On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:19 AM +, "Daniele Procida" mailto:dani...@vurt.org>> wrote: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Richard Smith wrote: > > ... > For getattr(universe, 'deity')'s sake, grow some balls and talk > to people. ... > Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Now you are unquestionably being rude to first Cory, then Daniele. The more mes

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Richard Barran wrote: > I am reading your last 2 sentences and I hope I’m horribly > misunderstanding your post; I’m reading that you are implying that I was > picking on someone’s disability. Could you just confirm that I’ve got it > completely wrong? > I'd have

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Great heavens, I'd have thought it was obvious that anyone telling a woman to "get a pair of balls" clearly has trouble perceiving women and men through the same set of filters. And now you involve the deity, albeit as a free variable. Then you interpret civil (though critical) comments about your

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 12:49, Alistair Broomhead > wrote: > > I would prefer not to hold other people to a higher standard than I hold > myself. I know I'm certainly guilty of sending an email in a rush before, and > later seeing that it wasn't perfect. It happens to everyone; a simple “Oops,

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 12:33 Daniele Procida wrote: > So, you are literally saying that the only way to get by here is by being > a man. > > I see Sophie's problem all too clearly. *blink*[0] Words escape me to explain quite how moronic that statement is. Let me rephrase for your benefit[1]: F

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: > > >For future reference, I did criticise the work... and was then accused of >being rude about my personal summary dismissal of the quality of the >recruiter based on the evidence available. > >Furthermore a CoC is not the way forward. CoC's validate th

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Since this list is run via a python.org server I'd imagine there's at least implicit consent by members to the Python Community Code of Conduct at https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/. The three headings are "Open," "Considerate" and "Respectful". Clearly there is no agreement on those terms a

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 10:56 Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: For future reference, I did criticise the work... and was then accused of being rude about my personal summary dismissal of the quality of the recruiter based on the evidence available. Furthermore a CoC is not the way forward. CoC's val

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

I would prefer not to hold other people to a higher standard than I hold myself. I know I'm certainly guilty of sending an email in a rush before, and later seeing that it wasn't perfect. The matter of the email's spelling being raked up again and again, when Sophie has apologised for it, and poin

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 11:49, Daniele Procida wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: > >> What was rude about it? > > Referring to a person as a "lazy recruitment agent" is rude. > >> Sophie is >> going to have to prove that she can be a trusted agent. > > Sophie doesn't have to

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

This topic comes around every couple of years or so... If memory serves me correctly, most people have thus far agreed posting jobs is fine (assuming they're comprehensively described and not obvious recruitment spam). On 07/12/16 11:16, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > I’m happy not to have recruitment m

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

I’m happy not to have recruitment messages on the discussion list. We all get inundated with enough of them as it is, and anyone actively looking for opportunities would probably be smart enough to visit https://pythonjobs.github.io/ or attend a Dojo and chat wit

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, at 10:57 AM, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of > Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process > for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive > direction? Following the

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:57:51AM +, Kaitlyn Tierney wrote: > I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of > Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for > enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? +1 >

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:31:56AM +, Richard Smith wrote: > Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. If you received the OPs > email, directly, would you require a little more information in the > post other than a technology stack and a carrot on a stick? The way this generally works is t

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

I think this is exchange is clear proof that the list requires a Code of Conduct. Does the list-owner agree, and if so, can we discuss a process for enacting one to move this conversation in a more productive direction? Kaitlyn > On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:55, Cory Benfield (Lukasa) wrote: > > >>

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

> On 7 Dec 2016, at 10:31, Richard Smith wrote: > > What was rude about it? We should expect recruitment agents to do a little > work to gain our trust. There are far too many bad agents in the world who > think it's acceptable to cold-call, spam, bully, edit CVs, fake candidates > and many u

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Wow, another community lists degenerates into PC hand wringing, this time as a result of a lazy recruiter spamming the list. I find the asymmetry of all this ironic: a recruiter spamming a list and then throwing a hissy fit when people light heartedly jest about the post, followed by 30+ messa

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: >On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 04:19 Daniele Procida wrote: > >> It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment >> messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that >> they are not. >> > >Ok, lets take the position it

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 at 04:19 Daniele Procida wrote: > It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment > messages are welcome here. To date, we've not come to any consensus that > they are not. > Ok, lets take the position it wasn't spam. If you received the OPs email, directly

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:10 AM, Daniele Procida wrote: > >Had Sophie made an effort, perhaps I might have been more accommodating. > As > >it stands, I've no interest in dealing with lazy recruitment agents. > > This is rudeness bordering on abuse, and it's definitely not acceptable on > this ema

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Let's get a few things out in the open: 1. This shouldn't need saying, but the python-uk making list is here to serve the Python community in the United Kingdom. As the key usage of Python by a large chunk of that community is gainful employment those of us I've spoken to in person all seem to agr

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016, Richard Smith wrote: >However, lets not forget what the original post was, which is spam. I >object to having that kind of content in my mailbox (have subsequently >added the OP to my shitlist in GApps). It wasn't spam. We have discussed several times whether recruitment mes

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 07/12/16 04:20, Richard Smith wrote: On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 14:59 Steve Holden mailto:st...@holdenweb.com>> wrote: +1 A little innocent fun is OK, but when it runs the risk of being hurtful it's probably gone far enough. It would be horrible if the Python community got a name fo

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Tue, 6 Dec 2016, Steve Holden wrote: On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a bit worrying. Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sort

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Yes, it's a pity the more rational feedback didn't come first, but knees do tend to jerk at recruitment communications. S Steve Holden On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Tom Wright wrote: > Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope this > constitutes thought. > > I would mak

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Perhaps replying immediately doesn't count as pause, but I hope this constitutes thought. I would make three points: I. The tone of the response may in part be due to the recruitment topic more than anything else. This is unfortunately a rather fraught subject. Bulk recruitment ads are so common

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 14:59 Steve Holden wrote: > +1 > > A little innocent fun is OK, but when it runs the risk of being hurtful > it's probably gone far enough. It would be horrible if the Python community > got a name for being snide. > +1 While I didn't post, I considered making something o

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:41 PM, David Wilson wrote: > This is a minor incident, but it's from a class where the underlying > insensitivity has forced other communities to grow a Code of Conduct, > therefore perhaps it's worth taking a little pause to reflect on it. > +1 A little innocent fun is

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

While I quite enjoyed this thread and, especially considering the recruiter's followup, it appears to have somewhat been in bad taste. I can't speak for others, but I'm in my mid 30s and regularly confuse license/licence, prescribe/proscribe and without doubt a bunch more, either through finger me

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 06/12/16 13:20, Roger Gammans wrote: > If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not > have simple values. Our principal aim is to express a complete and consistent set of misspelled principles. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

If your set of Prinicpia is Russell's not Newton's you may not have simple values. On Tue, 2016-12-06 at 13:10 +, Adam Johnson wrote: > Participating in this grammatical buffoonery is against my... values. > > On 6 December 2016 at 13:02, Andy Robinson > wrote: > > On 6 December 2016 at 12:5

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Participating in this grammatical buffoonery is against my... values. On 6 December 2016 at 13:02, Andy Robinson wrote: > On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden wrote: > > > > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? > > Newton's "Principia", I would imagine >

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 6 December 2016 at 12:58, Steve Holden wrote: > > > What's the principal principle to be observed in this principality? Newton's "Principia", I would imagine ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyt

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > > bit worrying. > > Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of > professions: from teachers

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 06/12/16 12:31, Andy Robinson wrote: > Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a > bit worrying. Depending on your level of cynicism that could apply to all sorts of professions: from teachers via priests and "marketing types" to politicians. signature.asc Descri

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 6 December 2016 at 12:01, Nicholas H.Tollervey wrote: > How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having > principles is important y'know... ;-) Yes, but if the job involves "engineering" peoples' principles, it's a bit worrying. - Andy __

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 06/12/16 11:53, Matthew Webber wrote: > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up > "principle" and "principal". How do you know they don't want a philosopher/Pythonista..? Having principles is important y'know... ;-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Did I just hear a “whoosh!” ? > On 6 Dec 2016, at 12:21, Alistair Broomhead > wrote: > > As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply to the > list ;) > > On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 11:09 David Hughes > wrote: > On 06/12/2016 10:20, Sophie Hend

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

> > As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply to the > list ;) > He probably did. It was a subtle dig at the recruiter mixing up "principle" and "principal". Share and enjoy. Matthew ___ python-uk mailing list python-uk@python.o

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

As a warning to others, I think you might not have wanted to reply to the list ;) On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 11:09 David Hughes wrote: > On 06/12/2016 10:20, Sophie Hendley wrote: > > Hey all, > > I wanted to see if anyone on this list would be interested in chatting to > me about either of the follo

Re: [python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

On 06/12/2016 10:20, Sophie Hendley wrote: Hey all, I wanted to see if anyone on this list would be interested in chatting to me about either of the following. *_ _* *_Principle engineer/ Future CTO to highly anticipated insurance start-up _* ... *_Principle engineer /Second in command to

[python-uk] 2 Principle Engineer roles in London up to £95k

Hey all, I wanted to see if anyone on this list would be interested in chatting to me about either of the following. *Principle engineer/ Future CTO to highly anticipated insurance start-up * Techstack: Python Django Javascript React.js *Principle engineer /Second in command to the CTO at a h