foo.__module__ will be 'spam'. But that's not a promise. It just means that
the foo function happened to have been created inside the foo.py or foo.so file
(or foo.dll on Windows?) but that isn't always the case.
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uot;)
(using Python syntax for simplicity) and somebody tries to tell me that the
value of x is anything but a Parrot instance named "Polly", I have no time for
that sort of nonsense. They might as well tell me that I'm typing this response
on an elephant.
> Can't we just
uldn't call dunder ("Double UNDERscore") methods directly
unless you know what you're doing. You should consider them for Python's use
only, unless explicitly told differently.
Calling __del__ directly is *especially* fraught with problems. It does not
delete the object. It just run
here are trees, only self-organising collections
of molecules;
- or physicists denying that there are molecules, only quarks and electrons.
But apparently reductionism is alive and well in computing.
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nd
methods no longer use the wrapper, and just return the function object itself.
The wrapper can be found in the types module:
from types import MethodType
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here's no built-in command in Python to do so, and
to be honest, I'm not sure how to do it.
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e clear
about it when you do.
> Software gets complicated because it involves multiple levels of
> abstraction layered on top of each other. We might as well be arguing
> like this:
>
> A: "The gas pedal makes the car go"
>
> B: "Nonsense! The g
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 03:26 am, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>> I'm not sure that Steve knows how it works. When he denies that the
>>> assignment is an alias operation in Python that casts an important doubt.
>>
>> I can assure you that Steve knows how it works. A
On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 06:00 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Python could have taken the indentation of the
> next line to tell that this is supposed to be
> a function definition and not a function call.
"Do What I Mean" (DWIM) programming is a terrible idea.
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est describes as "equals":
False equals False gives True
False equals True gives False
True equals False gives False
True equals True gives True
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On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 02:03 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 03:26 am, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>>at that moment, but it still needed correction. If the assignment is
>>>an alias operator then after the statements
>>Her
potential trouble in (really-long) real-world code.
How so?
Besides, if your code is "really long", you probably should factorise it into
smaller, meaningful chunks.
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is done and working correctly, and move
on to the next project.
*wink*
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wouldn't say "Oh, the code crashed on line 587. I'll do a quick
search for the closest break statement and start working from there."
What do you do?
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etur adipiscing elit ZZZ
ZZZ sed do euismod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore
magna aliqua.
I'm pretty sure this is a bug.
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ed, or actual) is "this"
in your comment.
I wonder if the behaviour is platform specific? On Linux, I've tried Python 2.7
(after adjusting for a Unicode string rather than byte string), 3.3 and 3.5 and
it breaks on the NO-BREAK SPACE on all three.
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“Cheer up,” the
s are bad.)
I still haven't gotten over hearing about a bug in the Internet Explorer
routines for handling WMF files, which lead to being unable to copy and paste
plain text in any application.
[2] The place I worked had a cuddly penguin toy called Mr Snuggles, and the
programmers would go and explain the problem to him. It never[3] failed.
[3] Well, hardly ever.
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On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 07:11 pm, Wolfgang Maier wrote:
> On 29.09.2017 11:05, Wolfgang Maier wrote:
>> On 29.09.2017 07:25, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>> I'm pretty sure this is a bug.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it is a bug, but a known one: https://bugs.python.org
On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 08:34 pm, D'Arcy Cain wrote:
> On 09/29/2017 03:15 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> "Carefully-designed experiments" -- yeah, that is so totally how the coders
>> I've worked with operate *wink*
>>
>> I think that&#x
__
save f1 in instance2._old_targets
set sys.stdout = f2
# second call __exit__
restore sys.stdout = f1
# first call __exit__
restore sys.stdout = __stdout__
I'm not seeing why _old_targets is a list.
Can anyone explain?
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On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 03:01 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 03:56 pm, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I worked in maintenance programming. You got the hand you were dealt!
>>> And you weren&#
@property
def diameter(self):
return 2*self.radius
@property
def area(self):
return pi*self.radius**2
@property
def circumference(self):
return pi*self.diameter
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en
criptors*. Properties are just one kind of descriptor, as are
methods. But I'm intentionally not talking about the gory details of
descriptors. Feel free to ask if you care, but honestly, you don't need to care
unless you are writing your own descriptor class.
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eferences for descriptors which you think are good, I would
> be interested.
The definitive explanation of descriptors is here:
https://docs.python.org/3/howto/descriptor.html
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ur algorithm is
better than speeding up your code.
> change it to
>
> last = (last**2 + c) % N
> return next
Better:
last = (pow(last, 2, N) + (2 % N)) % N
will almost certainly be faster for large values of last.
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“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be wo
of digits or more.
I just tried it with:
last = 123456789012345**85
which has over 1000 digits, comparing:
(last**2 + 17) % 95
versus:
(pow(last, 2, 95) + (17 % 95)) % 95
and the second form is about ten times faster.
But for smaller values of last, I agree, the first form
On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 05:34 pm, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> I must say, though, I have yet to run into a need for descriptors.
You've never called a method?
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ts
represent thirty-eight thousand one hundred more duotrigintillions.
A trifling number, much smaller than a googolplex.
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a gun to your head and forcing you to use @contextmanager. Its
a convenience, nothing more. You can still write your own __enter__ and
__exit__ methods if you prefer.
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ances. Semi-colon
separated statements are a convenience of use at the command line and REPL.
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On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 06:32 am, Bill wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> Circle didn't use any setters, but I could have let you set the
>> diameter, which in
>> turn would set the radius:
>>
>> circle.radius = 2
>> assert circle.diameter == 4
>&
are to hijack
people's computers to send their spam, and you want to trust them and buy from
them?
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duction of the @ syntactic
sugar would have a big impact on the way people think about Python
code.
http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=240808
Feel free to read his post before trying the problems I set.
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On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 10:01 pm, Lele Gaifax wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>
>> (9) [ADVANCED] Modify the decorator from (8) to take an argument specifying
>> the path to a file, and use the logging module to log the details to that
>> file instead of printing
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 04:45 am, Rhodri James wrote:
> On 03/10/17 18:29, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>Is this the best way to write a "loop and a half" in Python?
>
> Define "best".
I'd start with "define loop and a half".
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On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 03:18 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> »int« and »float« seem to behave quite similar:
>
> |>>> int( x = 8 )
> |8
> |>>> float( x = 8.0 )
> |8.0
I expect that these functions taking a *named* parameter "x" is an accident that
should
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 09:08 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 04:45 am, Rhodri James wrote:
>>>On 03/10/17 18:29, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>Is this the best way to write a "loop and a half" in Python?
>>>D
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:17 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> |>>> str(object='abc')
> |'abc'
That's probably also a bug.
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sd whn u run ot n hav shrtg of vwel wth
nt nuff 4 vrybdy.
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Modding the result of the
> exponentiation might be useful for performance, but if c is expected
> to be small then it may be pointless to mod that as well.
>
> py> ((2**75) % 12 + 7) % 12 # Still correct.
> 3
Its been years since I've had to tackle modulo arithmetic, but the
ot in your
little corner of the programming world, but there's an entire world out
there.
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ve to define some sort of super_initialize() function for your tests
> which guarantees that your initialize function is called precisely
> once?
No.
> This all seems rather messy.
Indeed. And now you know why importing a module/package should be sufficient
to initialise it
much to ask (I haven't found anything myself after all),
> if anyone here happens to have any experience using similar C++ (or
> possibly C) libraries I am certainly open for any recommendations. :)
>
> Thanks in advance!
> Thomas
--
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“Cheer up,” they said, “things cou
time I accidentally reassigned to something intended as a constant.
Nevertheless, constants are a safety net I would appreciate.
[1] By which I mean names which can only be bound once, but not rebound. This
is not about mutability, it is about whether or not the name can be rebound.
--
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“Cheer
hers who have to read/maintain their
> code wonder what it means."
>
> Exactly the same could be said of pretty much any of the advanced
> features that have been added.
People can say any old rubbish they like, and frequently do.
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On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 09:35 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>For-each loops are MUCH easier to understand, and should be taught first.
>
> I prefer a bottom-up approach.
I prefer an effective approach that starts with the simplest concepts first,
not the most
roduced to help with the while loop. This
> boolean variable
> is the condition that gets you out of the while loop and the first time
> through it must
> be set to get your code to execute the while loop at least one."
I've been programming in Python for twenty years, and I do
at with unittest; doing so in doctest requires a bit
more nuance and care, but is still possible.
If this doesn't solve your problem, I'm afraid I don't understand your
problem.
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 02:56 am, Paul Moore wrote:
> On 4 October 2017 at 16:35, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> I've been programming in Python for twenty years, and I don't think I have
>> ever once read from a file using a while loop.
>
> Twenty years isn&
alfway through the second course for students in the major,
> not the sort of thing I would teach to this particular audience this early.
>
> But yes, we can use yield, and iter(), and itertools to do both of these
> examples very clearly with a for loop (and without an explicit break
&
n. It is a
language wart and a trap for the beginner, or even the experienced coder. Use
Python 3, where it is fixed.
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 09:42 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>>So, "bottom-up" in this case means: iterators should be
>>>taught before for-loops.
>>Why?
>
> The syntax for is (from memory):
>
> for in :
>
ivalent high-level socket interface, like for files, so we
can simply write something like:
with Socket(spam) as mysock:
for block in mysock(blocksize):
...
I haven't done enough [read: any] socket programming to tell how useful and
practical this is, but it seems like an obviou
rit.
But you don't need to know the slightest thing about iterators in order to
learn how to iterate over lists, strings, tuples, dicts etc. In fact,
iterators are merely a subset of a more fundamental "kind" of object,
iterables: anything which can be iterated over.
--
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“C
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 01:21 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>At various stages of education, we teach many lies-to-children, including:
>
> Many of those lies can be perfectly true in some sense.
Well of course, that's the whole point of them being &q
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 01:36 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>If you were teaching people to drive a car, would you insist on teaching
>>them how to pull out and rebuild the engine before sitting them in the
>>drivers seat?
>
> If I would have t
sitron particles.
In actual annihilation events, there is (as far as I know) generally a single
real photon produced, with momentum equal to the sum of the momentum vectors
of the original electron and positron. That moves away from the point of
production at the speed of light.
--
Steve
“Che
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 02:54 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
[...]
>> In the East, while Japan did take the first overtly military action against
>> the US, the US had (in some sense) first engaged in hostile behavi
earn. When I first
learned Python, they caused me trouble, and I'm sure they will cause any
beginner to programming trouble. Adding constants to the language won't
change that.
Besides, if we had constants:
const foo = 1234
then we could have:
from demo import const foo
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 02:54 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> It is, I think, an example of a stupid English language folklore that
>> people repeat unthinkingly, even though the counter-examples are obvious
>> and co
o, think rather of Terry Pratchett.
+1 for mentioning Sir PTerry!
And an extra bonus for it actually being relevant :-)
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 03:54 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>In actual annihilation events, there is (as far as I know)
>>generally a single real photon produced
>
> »There are only a very limited set of possibilities for
> the final st
hand
which will fill in the boilerplate for you:
- an appropriate initialiser __init__
- a good-looking __repr__
- equality, inequality, and rich comparison operators;
- an optional __hash__ method.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0557/
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“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be
t* release, rather than the
latest. If it works with (say) 3.5.0, then you should be safe to claim it
works for all 3.5. But if it works for 3.5.4, say, you aren't *quite* so safe
to make the same claim.
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to concrete geometric terms, showing
physical shapes divided into quarters, she could instantly tell that 1/4 plus
1/4 must be 1/2.
As I said, anecdotes are not data, but when research claims to show that
apples fall upwards in contradiction to anecdotal evidence that they fall
downwards, we would be wise to be cautious before accepting the research as
fact.
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ts of Python, but don't worry about
it. In practice, you almost never need to care about it.
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gh, and they'll need to buy another 16GB plus more downtime
and more installation costs.
Memory leaks expand to fill the available memory.
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nd line tool.
But the OS is what it is, and the culture has a certain level of commandline
machismo, so that's unlikely to change.
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ing;
(2) rather than `del x`, try `x[:] = []`;
(3) then if memory consumption stops increasing
that may be evidence of a leak, and provide a reasonable work around until the
leak can be fixed.
But in a well-behaved program, you shouldn't need to manually delete x at all.
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“Ch
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 04:51 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Gregory Ewing
> wrote:
>> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>>
>>> Plus the downtime and labour needed to install the memory, if the computer
>>> will even take it.
>>
>
a bit weird about using the magic constant 0 here. Is that guaranteed
to be stdin on all platforms? Or should I be using sys.stdin.fileno()?
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n (possibly blocking,
waiting for input).
Is that right?
But aren't there circumstances where fileno 0 isn't attached to a terminal,
and writing a prompt would be inappropriate?
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hen every time I'm on a different
computer or running as a different user, I'd end up with the annoying default
single column again.
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Actually two: your OS's version of EOF (Ctrl-D on Unix-like systems, Ctrl-Z
ENTER on Windows), plus at least one of the usual exit/quit/bye named
commands. (Localised into whatever natural language you are using for the
prompts.)
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uot;treelang", whatever the
hell that is.
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't know whether German makes a practice of taking arbitrary verbs and
adjectives and turning them into nouns, but English does, and so a callable
object is just called a "callable".
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bly including a kool
new design that uses light grey text on an ever so slightly lighter grey
background) and deleting any useful functionality that the lead developer
personally doesn't use, because "nobody uses that".
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
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“Cheer up,” the
.
The sorts of games your students write use stdin to get input from the user,
but they don't -- or at least, shouldn't -- merely dump the user at a bare
screen with no prompt and no explanation of what they're supposed to do.
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ary file;
- hit backspace to send it to the trash
(27 steps).
Yes, I can certainly see why you prefer that second work-flow to the first.
Its so much more inefficient than memorising "Ctrl-D for EOF".
I forget... it is "work harder, not smarter"? Being inefficient is a
en really useful.
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On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 11:05 am, bartc wrote:
> On 07/10/2017 00:43, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 12:24 am, bartc wrote:
>>
>>> print ("Enter blank expression to quit.")
>>
>>
>> I *despise* programs that do that, and woul
he'd see the defaults, not Fred's settings, and could run
source george
to get his own settings.
(Obviously Fred and George would have to create the "fred" and "george" config
files first.)
I don't know if Windows shells have something like bash's `source
this last sense (an instance of FunctionType) which people are thinking
of when they state that range is not a function.
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that.
> Even though that method is not user-friendly
True enough. `sort` is not designed to be a end-user application, although it
can be used by the end-user.
> and hardly anyone ever uses it in that mode.
Translation: "I don't use it in that mode".
> So that same unfr
e free to disable the
warnings.
Personally, I think Python gets it right: by default, warnings are only
printed once each. Instead of getting a million
WARNING: 32x32 icon missing, using 16x16 icon
you only see it once.
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standard keyboard shortcuts Ctrl-KW
Ctrl-KY Ctrl-KR is better than memorising Ctrl-D which works across thousands
of applications? Good for you. You probably would love Emacs, except other
people use it, and therefore you will hate it.
[...]
> However, how hard would it for the editor to do its own sorting?
Yes, it is a mystery to me why so few editors include a "sort lines" function.
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he Mac software, making it
essentially unusable.
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On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 12:49 am, bartc wrote:
> On 07/10/2017 14:19, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 11:06 pm, bartc wrote:
>
>> Ctrl-K to enter "operate on selected text" mode;
>> Y to Delete
>> Ctrl-K to enter "operate on selected text&
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 01:15 am, bartc wrote:
> On 07/10/2017 14:19, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 11:06 pm, bartc wrote:
>
>>> So I have to copy 33,000 lines from a document,
>>
>> Don't be daft. Nobody says that stdin is a sufficient int
are values but classes are
not (e.g. Java), then classes should be considered distinct from functions.
As always, it depends on what you mean by function.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
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u have
>> configured as eof) at the command prompt. On windows, it's Ctrl-Z
>> .
>
> Steve spoke about the 'usual quit/exit/bye' commands.
As well as Ctrl-D, EOF, which is a standard way to exit most Unix programs.
(Or as close as anything in Unix comes to a stan
eptions (*ALL* of which are some form
of in-line data table, and even then only rarely) any programmer who worries
about lining up assignments on different lines like this is just engaged in a
time-wasting exercise to make themselves look busy while actually taking it
easy. It is a pure avoidance activity.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
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C, I don't think many people believe that it is a
well-designed language.
But even if it were the best language in the world, and Stroustrup the
greatest language designer in the history of computing, what makes you think
that he knows anything about teaching?
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “thi
n objects which exist at the same time. If you delete an
object, so the garbage collector reclaims its memory and reuses it, it is
possible that the ID number may be reused as well.)
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
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rying
to attach attributes to arbitrary objects like None or "Hello World"?
But certainly if you get something like UnicodeDecodeError or ImportError from
trying to set an attribute, that's a bug in o.__setattr__ that needs fixing.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could
ly the same between C and C++. Even two
different C compilers could return different values.
> Then we have syntactic problems:
[...]
I don't believe that anyone meant to imply that C++ is an exact superset of C.
I know I didn't, although I acknowledge that my terminology was lazy.
C+
ns:
> |You can use exception handling as a technique of last resort
> |to handle unexpected events for which the normal control
> |structures let you down.
Even more ironically, exception handling is most similar to a COMEFROM, which
was invented as a joke.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 04:41 pm, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> Even two
>> different C compilers could return different values.
>
> Nope. If sizeof char is not 1, then it's not C.
Today I Learned.
Thank you to everyone who corrected me, even the person who said I was not
veloper's productivity.
> [...] If I had to write a
> high performance application these days I would reach
> for C.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
1 byte = 32 bits?
I don't suppose you remember the name of the machine do you?
> Writing protocol code that dealt with the outside world via a serial
> port was _painful_.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
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