Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
Pascal
provides print()/println() [okay, not /statements/ but /procedures/]
Actually write/writeln, and although they used parens like
procedures, they had special syntax for output formatting
that wasn't available to user-defined procedures, so they
were at least as sp
Rhodri James wrote:
Tsk. You should have learned (a fake simplified) assembler first,
Never mind that fake assembly rubbish, learn a real assembly
language! And hand-assemble it and toggle it into the front
panel switches like I did!
--
Greg
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Grant Edwards wrote:
Alternatively, you should design an instruction set and implement it
using microcode and AM2900 bit-slice processors.
AMD2900? That's cheating! You should design and build your
own logic gates. After refining the silicon to make the
transistors first, of course.
--
Greg
--
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
"Binding" itself tends to be Python specific terminology -- in that it
is the parameter /name/ that gets bound/attached to the argument /object/.
It is the same method as used in any Python "assignment" statement,
Which is why I think "call by assignment" would
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
Though "assignment" differs so much between languages
That's the point of the term -- it's the same as whatever
assignment does in the language concerned.
This is true of *every* language I know of that uses the
term "call by value" in its official documentatio
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
I think that suffers from the same problem as "call by binding" -- assignment is
too general a word.
If you're learning a new language, you're almost certainly
going to learn how assignment works in that language before
you get as far as worrying about parameter passing. I
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
Or perhaps I should say:
I disintegrate it really snooze to pyramid running when the ribbons they
apply to sandwiches are not the same as the sleep I use.
You could say that, and nobody would care much.
If you insisted that your personal interpretation of those
Neil Cerutti wrote:
The quest to find a succinct way to categorize Python's argument
passing for non-Python programmers strikes me as a sincere effort
to to simplify something that just isn't simple.
I don't see how it's useful to do that in the first place.
Under what circumstances would you f
Antoon Pardon wrote:
It also says: This typically means that the function can modify the variable
used as argument, something Python can do that.
No, it can't. It can modify the *object* bound to the variable,
but *not* the variable itself.
If you think it can, then you're misunderstanding wha
Thomas Jollans wrote:
When an object is
constructed from a class, all functions in the class are turned into
method objects that refer back to the original object.
That's not quite true. Nothing is done to the methods at
the time an instance is created; rather, a bound method
object is created
Ben Bacarisse wrote:
Think functional! This is 257 characters:
250 chars, 17 shorter than the text it produces:
a=[];o=[];n=[];A=list.append
for b in range(3,-1,-1):
x=bool(b>>1);y=bool(b&1);A(a,"%s and %s is %s"%(x,y,x and y));A(o,"%s or %s is
%s"%(x,y,x or y))
if x:A(n,"not %s is %s"%(y
Cai Gengyang wrote:
So does that mean that the way 'and' works in Python is that both terms must
be True (1) for the entire expression to be True ? Why is it defined that
way, weird ?
It's not weird, it's the normal meaning of "and" in English.
Do I have purple hair? No.
Do I have three nostri
Chris Angelico wrote:
finding the bug is basically searching
through a problem space of all things that could potentially cause
this symptom. A novice could accidentally stumble onto the right
solution to a tricky bug, or an expert could search a thousand other
things and only get to the true cau
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
(1) I know there's a bug in a specific chunk of code, but I'm having trouble
working out where. When everything else fails, if I perturb the code a bit
(reorder lines, calculate things in a different order, rename variables, etc)
it may change the nature of the bug enough fo
Bill wrote:
Don't be afraid to write *really descriptive* output statements, and do
so even though you "don't need to".
Yeah, often when I'm writing something tricky I'll proactively
put in some code to print intermediate state to reassure myself
that things are on track. Being more verbose wit
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 01:40 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
You know, you don't HAVE to economize on letters. It's okay to call
your parameters "prompt" instead of "prmt". Remember, that's part of
your API.
Whn u wste vwels lik that, dn't b srprsd whn u run ot n hav shrtg of vwel
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
I recall that the Pascal compiler had to do some clever behind the scenes
jiggery-pokery to get eof() to work, but that's what compilers are supposed
to do: make common tasks easy for the programmer.
Sometimes the jiggery-pokery worked, sometimes it didn't.
For example, th
bartc wrote:
Result? You can't just look at my 'any' class and see what fields it
uses. You can't even just look at the static source code. You have to
run the program to find out. And it might be different each time.
You can usually get a pretty good idea of what attributes a
class has by loo
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
I've seen (or at least, I remember seeing)
diagrams of matter/antimatter annihilation with the two particles coming
together and a single photon coming out: a simplified and strictly wrong view
of the physics.
It may or may not be wrong, depending on what the diagram was
s
bartc wrote:
It can be done with an in-band end-of-data code,
Then you need some way of escaping that in-band code, in case
it happens to equal some of the data you want to sort. And
you need to ensure that your input is escaped properly.
All of which adds a lot of complexity.
Yes, I tried typ
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
Plus the downtime and labour needed to install the memory, if the computer
will even take it.
Obviously we need an architecture that supports hot-swappable
robot-installable RAM.
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bartc wrote:
Then you might have 'sort' for the non-interactive version, and 'isort'
or whatever for the interactive.
It's pretty rare that you'd want to use 'sort' interactively,
which is why your hypothetical 'isort' doesn't exist.
However, it *is* common to use it as part of a pipeline, whi
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
You don't think multiple columns in interactive mode is useful?
The issue is not whether single vs. multi column mode is better, but
whether it should automatically switch based on what kind of thing
is connected to stdin.
Personally I find that behavour surprising and wo
bartc wrote:
This preprocesses the code and shows the result. Typical programs will
have many thousands of lines of output, but it just dumps it to the
console. You /have/ to use '>' to use it practically (Windows doesn't
really have a working '|' system.)
This may be why you're having troubl
Chris Angelico wrote:
Hmm, but usually I would expect them still to HAVE those streams,
they're just connected to /dev/null or something. I don't think they
would actually fail to exist, would they?
On unix there's nothing to stop you launching a process
with fds 0, 1 and 2 all closed. It would
Peter J. Holzer wrote:
In any case, that -E writes to stdout and -S to file is an inconsistency
which looks more like a historical accident than a planned feature to
me.
A possible reason is that with -S there is an obvious choice
for the output file name, i.e. .s, but there is
no conventional
bartc wrote:
Interactive Python requires quit() or exit(), complete with parentheses.
Er, what? Ctrl-D works fine for me to exit Python when not
in the midst of entering a block.
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Chris Angelico wrote:
But personally, I'd have looked for a "print to
PS" of some sort, using a gigantic 'page' size, and then convert the
PS to PNG. I don't know for certain that I can do the latter
conversion,
It would be easy on MacOSX. Anything you can print can be sent
to a PDF file, and P
bartc wrote:
And within an application, it can do what it likes. With regards to
editing, there are some common conventions that I absolutely hate:
In other words, you would like all authors of text editors to
adopt a certain set of conventions for these things. So much
for each program "doing
Grant Edwards wrote:
Which took it from RSX-11. Or probably more specifically from
FILES-11. I woldn't be surprised if the enineers at DEC got it from
somewhere else before that.
Quite possibly it goes back to the very earliest DEC OS
that had files, whatever that was.
The reason for it was
bartc wrote:
While on the subject of C syntax, here are some fun ambiguities:
f(x);// call function with arg x, or declare x of type f?
a*b; // multiply a by b, or declare b of type pointer to a?
(a)*b// multiply a by b, or cast *b to type a?
Technically these are not ambiguous i
bartc wrote:
tokenrec * (*)[]
>
the original source and that type is written like this:
ref [] ref tokenrec
The idiomatic way to write that type in C would be
tokenrec **
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Neil Cerutti wrote:
I dig
const qualifiers, even though I'm comletely fine with their
absence from Python.
Out of curiosity, do you have any insights into why you
like them in C++, if you don't miss them in Python?
--
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bartc wrote:
The original has an extra pointer so idiomatic C might be more:
tokenrec ***
I was going by your English description, which when translated
into C gives only two pointers.
But I think you're right that the C version really has 3 levels
of indirection, so the meaning of "array
Ben Bacarisse wrote:
That's a different type. I think you mean that a human writing C
(rather than bartc's code generator) would probably design the code to
use tokenrec ** then I agree, but the latter is not just a different way
to write the former.
Yes, I was translating his English descript
bartc wrote:
(2) Declare data to be put into read-only memory as you say. That's fine
with a 'const int * p', but what about a 'int * const p'?
If the compiler can tell where p is initially pointing, it could
put the pointer in read-only memory. Probably unlikely to happen
in real code, though.
Stefan Ram wrote:
void
i_know_i_was_passed_a_pointer_to_an_array_and_how_many_elements_are_in_it
( char( *a )[ 4 ] )
{ for( int i = 0; i < 4; ++i )
putchar( ( *a )[ i ]); }
Only because you've statically made the array size part of
the type. Your original example didn't do that; presumably
it
Grant Edwards wrote:
It sure was an education the first I wrote C code for
a machine where
1 == sizeof char == sizeof int == sizeof long == sizeof float == sizeof double
All were 32 bits.
Unicode-ready -- way ahead of its time!
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Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2017-10-13, Stefan Ram wrote:
1 byte
addressable unit of data storage large enough to hold
any member of the basic character set of the execution
environment«
ISO C standard
Hmmm. So an architecture with memory addressed in octets
and Unicode
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 03:37 pm, Gregory Ewing wrote:
If the compiler can tell where p is initially pointing, it could
put the pointer in read-only memory.
If it's read-only, how can the compiler write to it?
(I come from the days when ROM was actual ROM, burned
Chris Angelico wrote:
Certainly not. A byte would be 21 bits!
Only if 21 bits were *also* an addressable unit of storage
in addition to octets. That would be an interesting architecture
indeed.
If you really wanted that, it might be easier just to make
the memory bit-addressable. In which case
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
I wasn't questioning where the data came from, but how the compiler can write
to READ ONLY MEMORY which might not even be in the same continent as the
compiler that generated the code.
I thought it would be fairly obvious that by "put it in
read-only memory" I meant "arran
Neil Cerutti wrote:
I can tell at a glance if a parameter is expected to be
modifiable just by looking at the function signature.
The question is why doesn't anyone feel the need to be
able to do that for Python functions? Whether a function
modifies things passed to it is just as important to
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
For example, pressing delete when there is no text to delete should just
silently do nothing.
That's really just a matter of deciding what should count as
an error and what shouldn't. You've decided that "pressing
Delete when there's nothing to delete does nothing" is a
re
alister wrote:
in the past for large quantitys the data in a ROM chip was part of the
chip etching mask
I know, I'm considering the masking process to be a kind of
write operation.
The Apollo lunar lander used a magnetic core store that was hard coded at
the time it was "Woven"
I doubt that
danceswithnumb...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 11:52:27 AM UTC-6, jonas.t...@gmail.com wrote:
What is to say that you can not do it if the symbolic representation is
richer than the symbolic represenatation of the dataset.
The more symbols you have in your alphabet, the more
danceswithnumb...@gmail.com wrote:
12344321
It only takes seven 8 bit bytes to represent this
This is not surprising. The theoretical minimum size
for 16 arbitrary decimal digits is:
log2(10) * 16 = 53.15 bits = 6.64 bytes
I think you misunderstand what is meant by the phrase
"random
danceswithnumb...@gmail.com wrote:
I did that quite a while ago. 352,954 kb.
Are you sure? Does that include the size of all the
code, lookup tables, etc. needed to decompress it?
But even if you have, you haven't disproved the theorem about
compressing random data. All you have is a program t
danceswithnumb...@gmail.com wrote:
Compress this:
4135124325
Bin to dec...still very large
0110
0000
1101
01100101
Wait right there! You're cheating by dropping off leading
0 bits. The maximum value of a 10 digit decimal number is
99, which in hex is 2540be3ff. That's 34
danceswithnumb...@gmail.com wrote:
My 8 year old can decode this back into base 10,
Keep in mind that your 8 year old has more information
than just the 32 bits you wrote down -- he can also
see that there *are* 32 bits and no more. That's
hidden information that you're not counting.
--
Greg
Paul Moore wrote:
But that's not "compression", that's simply using a better encoding.
In the technical sense, "compression" is about looking at redundancies
that go beyond the case of how effectively you pack data into the
bytes available.
There may be a difference in the way the terms are use
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
- Encrypted data looks very much like random noise.
There's actually a practical use for that idea. If you can feed
the output of an encryption algorithm through a compressor and
make it smaller, it means there is a cryptographic weakness
in the algorithm that could potent
Ben Bacarisse wrote:
The trouble is a pedagogic one. Saying "you can't compress random data"
inevitably leads (though, again, this is just my experience) to endless
attempts to define random data.
It's more about using terms without making sure everyone agrees
on the definitions being used.
I
Lele Gaifax wrote:
That's simple enough: of course one empty file would be
"music.mp3.zip.zip.zip", while the other would be
"movie.avi.zip.zip.zip.zip.zip"... some sort of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory applied to file system entries :-)
If you're allowed to alternate between two c
Ben Bacarisse wrote:
But that has to be about the process that gives rise to the data, not
the data themselves.
If I say: "here is some random data..." you can't tell if it is or is
not from a random source. I can, as a parlour trick, compress and
recover this "random data" because I chose it
danceswithnumb...@gmail.com wrote:
10101011
This equals
61611
This can be represented using
0-6 log2(7)*5= 14.0367746103 bits
11010101
This equals
54543
This can be represented using
0-5 log2(6)*5= 12.9248125036 bits
You're missing something fundamental about what
entropy is
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
Random data = any set of data generated by "a source of random".
Any set of data generated by Grant Thompson?
https://www.youtube.com/user/01032010814
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Stefan Ram wrote:
Well, then one can ask about the entropy of a data source
that only is emitting this message.
You can, but it's still the *source* that has the entropy,
not the message.
(And the answer in that case is that the entropy is zero.
If there's only one possible message you can
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
I don't think that's right. The entropy of a single message is a well-defined
quantity, formally called the self-information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-information
True, but it still depends on knowing (or assuming) the
probability of getting that particular me
Chris Angelico wrote:
One bit. It might send the message, or it might NOT send the message.
The entropy formula assumes that you are definitely
going to send one of the possible messages. If not
sending a message is a possibility, then you need
to include an empty message in the set of messages
Chris Angelico wrote:
I don't understand why you would use "yield from" as a synonym for
"await". They are not equivalent. Why would you use one in place of
the other?
As far as I understand, currently the implementations of "yield from"
and "await" are sufficiently similar that they *would* be
Chris Angelico wrote:
And it's illogical to say "Windows is feeling cranky today" when
something inexplicably fails.
Everyone understands that to be a tongue-in-cheek
metaphor for "Windows is misbehaving in unfathomable
ways", and not "the people who wrote Windows were
feeling cranky when they
Chris Angelico wrote:
wants_one_arg.__code__.co_argcount
1
wants_one_arg.__code__.co_varnames
('x',)
That will give you some idea, but it's not foolproof -- e.g.
if the function has * or ** arguments, it's impossible to tell
in general how many arguments it accepts without studying the
c
It *could* be made to work:
import math
class PI(float):
__doc__ = "The circle constant (Note: tau is better :-)"
math.pi = PI(math.pi)
print(math.pi)
help(math.pi)
--
Greg
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Cameron Simpson wrote:
one could change implementations such that applying a docstring to an
object _removed_ it from the magic-shared-singleton pool,
Is there any need to bother? If another float happened to end
up with exactly the same value as pi and got merged with it,
the docstring wouldn'
Michael Torrie wrote:
You also have this header set:
X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2017 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved.
... It is forbidden to change
URIs of this article into links...
What is "changing a URI into a link" meant to mean? Does it
include automatically displaying something that l
Cameron Simpson wrote:
one could change implementations such that applying a docstring to an
object _removed_ it from the magic-shared-singleton pool,
That's not sufficient, though. Consider:
BUFFER_SIZE = 256
BUFFER_SIZE.__doc__ = "Size of the buffer"
TWO_TO_THE_EIGHT = 256
TWO
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 3:27:17 AM UTC+13, zlju...@gmail.com wrote:
Looks like I need some sort of parallelization.
This is why coroutines were added to Python. Threading is notoriously
bug-prone, and is best avoided in most situations.
The OP claimed tha
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
I naturally concluded that you didn’t care about
updates being momentarily held up by a web request in progress--which would
happen anyway if you used threads, at least with CPython.
Not necessarily -- the web processing is probably I/O bound,
in which case the GIL wi
november nihal wrote:
I should have added I switch off the machine when I stop. ( I dont have options
to keep it in a sleep mode or in hibernation )
The iterator returned by itertools.combinations is pickleable:
>>> from pickle import dumps, loads
>>> from itertools import combinations
>>> c
bartc wrote:
(Maybe it's viable if working from an exacting
specification that someone else has already worked out.)
In my experience, for anything non-trivial that hasn't been
done before, these "exacting specifications" never exist.
Even if someone handles wnat they *think* are exact and
comp
Chris Angelico wrote:
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 1:11 AM, bartc wrote:
>
If I had to bother with such systematic tests as you suggest, and finish and
sign off everything before proceeding further, then nothing would ever get
done. (Maybe it's viable if working from an exacting specification that
bartc wrote:
Testing everything comprehensively just wouldn't be useful for me who
works on whole applications, whole concepts, not just a handful of
functions with well-defined inputs and outputs.
I had this experience with Pyrex (the precursor to Cython).
The various parts are so interdepend
There seems to be a gateway loop of some sort going on.
I'm seeing multiple versions of the same posts in
comp.lang.python with different numbers of "nospam"s
prepended to the email address.
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Chris Angelico wrote:
Heh, you mean the term "Windows key"? It's not appropriate on
keyboards that don't have an actual Windows logo on it. There are
other names for it, but I figured the easiest way was to describe its
location :D
That doesn't work for all keyboards, though. The one I'm using
Rick Johnson wrote:
DOLT: "Programming is easy! Once you learn the langauge,
it's just a matter of fill-in-the-blanks."
To be fair to this person, for someone who has a natural
aptitude for programming, it can be difficult to appreciate
how hard it is for people who don't.
When I firs
Rhodri James wrote:
Even then there was RiscOS, which divorced file names from file types
entirely.
As did classic MacOS.
I believe MacOSX also has the ability to store a file type
as metadata, but it doesn't seem to be used much.
--
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Steve D'Aprano wrote:
They are still supported (-ish) by OS X, but have been superseded by Uniform
Type Identifiers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Type_Identifier
I know, what I'm not sure about is how much those are used
by apps these days, with so much of the widely used software
be
Grant Edwards wrote:
Where are the UTIs stored? Do OS X filesystems still have a "resource
fork"?
UTIs are stored as extended attributes.
Resource forks still exist, but they're deprecated. Things that
used to be kept in resource forks are now usually just files in
the application bundle -- w
Anyone else now getting duplicate posts with the sender's
name repeated in parentheses?
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Bill wrote:
In my experience,
if they do not have the basic (~pre-calc) math behind them, then
learning from a textbook on a programming language, say, may be a bit
beyond them.
Very little mathematical *knowledge* is needed to get started
with programming. You can do a lot of useful things
The duplicate posts all seem to have this header:
Injection-Info: news.bbs.geek.nz;
posting-host="M6YmRdZYyc42DJk0lNlt/X4dpP4dzvceBNabSmESN3E";
logging-data="4415"; mail-complaints-to="ab...@news.bbs.geek.nz"
I've emailed the administrator of bbs.geek.nz, maybe he
will be able to stop
Bill wrote:
In my years of teaching experience,
students who came to college without the equivalent of "college algebra"
were under-prepared for what was expected of them.
This could be simply because it weeds out people who aren't
good at the required style of thinking. If that's true,
anythi
Chris Angelico wrote:
You do NOT have to go to
college before you start creating software. That is also not an
opinion; it's a fact backed by a number of proven instances (myself
included).
Me, too. I started programming (a tiny homebrew machine) when
I was about 12 or 13. I was just starting t
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
I notice that Lawrence D’Oliveiro has taken up labelling his posts with a
demand that his posts are not to be posted to the Python-List mailing list.
I don't think it's a demand. I gather that he has been banned from
posting on the Python mailing lists, and I think he's ju
G Yu wrote:
The command gives , and I don't know how to determine the x-coordinate of
the center from that output.
Try this in an interactive session:
p = circle.getCenter()
help(p)
This should give you a page of text showing all the attributes
and methods your point object has. Somewhe
Stefan Ram wrote:
BASIC has
DEF FN...
which /can/ define actual subroutines, limited to expressions.
Now, what does this limitation remind me of?
The equivalent limitation in Python is nowhere near as bad,
since if you outgrow what lambda can do you can always
use a def instead. BASIC
bartc wrote:
C doesn't in general have local functions. My own languages don't
implement them properly. So I tend not to use them.
Looks like there's something circular going on here. You don't
have much experience of using local functions, so you don't
see a lot of value in them, so you haven'
bartc wrote:
B and C occur twice, so a goto is a quick way to reuse B and C without
needing to duplicate code,
This only works if the repeated part happens to be at the
tail of each case. Any other situation and you're back to
local functions.
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Skip Montanaro wrote:
I've got some 7z archives I'd like to
treat the same way (read specific elements without first extractingg
the entire tree to disk).
If you're doing this a lot, it might be worth repackaging
your 7z files as zip files.
--
Greg
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bartc wrote:
I downloaded Python 3.7. It didn't work. I uninstalled and reinstalled
it, this time with the 'set environment variables' option (to allow
'pip' to be typed from anywhere).
I suspect some of your problems might have been caused
by 'pip' not using the Python you thought it was usin
Ned Batchelder wrote:
so "pip install pygame" should work. Some people seem so
determined to dislike a thing, they cannot be convinced there are
solutions to their problems.
But it clearly didn't work for bartc at first, and the
error messages he got didn't make it at all clear why.
You can't
Robert O'Shea wrote:
I wrote a little bytecode interpreter in C (maybe should have
upgrade to C++ but not yet)
Don't feel bad about that -- IMO, C is perfectly fine for
tnis kind of thing, and "upgrading" to C++ would gain you
nothing while introducing extra headaches.
--
Greg
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Steven D'Aprano wrote:
(The day a programmer posts a WAV file of themselves reading their code
out aloud, is the day I turn my modem off and leave the internet forever.)
Shh! Don't give them ideas!
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On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 22:41:36 + (UTC), Steven D'Aprano
declaimed the following:
Its the component of the router that actually handles the
telecommunications side of things. Legend has it that once upon a time
they were a stand alone device.
Even more distant legend suggests that modems ex
Mark Lawrence wrote:
IIRC the same source for the "nospam" stuff of some months ago which I
believe was purely accidental.
I have told the site admin about this, hopefully he will be able
to put a stop to it again.
--
Greg
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boB Stepp wrote:
"Python is viewed as a ubiquitous programming language; however, its
design limits its potential as a reliable and high performance systems
language. Unfortunately, not every developer is aware of its
limitations."
"The Toyota Corolla is viewed as a ubiquitous family car; howev
Seb wrote:
I was wondering is whether there's a faster way of
multiplying each row (1x3) of a matrix by another matrix (3x3), compared
to looping through the matrix row by row as shown in the code.
Just multiply the two matrices together.
If A is an nx3 matrix and B is a 3x3 matrix, then
C = A
After this thread, the term "docstring" is never going
to mean quite the same thing to me again.
--
Greg
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Paul Rubin wrote:
So you want the programmer to put more head scratching into figuring out
which reference should be strong and which should be weak?
Also, sometimes weak references don't really solve the
problem, e.g. if you have a graph where you can't identify
any particular node as a "root"
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