Re: Checking if a text file is blank

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Re: Finally had to plonk google gorups.

En Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:23:57 -0300, Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Torsten Bronger wrote: >> The admistrative overhead of mailing lists is tedious. Fortunately, >> most important computer-related lists are on gmane.org. We could >> list c.l.py there, too. ;-) >> > c.l.py has been

Re: Checking for unique fields: performance.

En Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:23:08 -0300, Shawn Milochik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > I'm looping through a tab-delimited file to gather statistics on fill rates, > lengths, and uniqueness. > > For the uniqueness, I made a dictionary with keys which correspond to the > field names. The values were or

Re: random.random(), random not defined!?

En Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:28:37 -0300, globalrev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > do i need to import something to use random? Let me guess: you have a script named random.py? Perhaps the same one you're executing? In that case when you write "import random", you're importing *your* script instead

Re: Calling Java Class from python

En Wed, 16 Apr 2008 07:37:55 -0300, Good Z <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > We have developed a website in python and we need to integrate few features > of third party website. They have provided us Base64EncoderDecoder Java Class > and would like us to use it to encode the data before sending i

Re: python memory leak only in x86 64 linux

En Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:10:42 -0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > This is the code that is causing memory leak in 64 bit python [but not > in 32 bit python].. is something wrong in the code? > > [... Python code using the datetime module ...] >> the memory usage of a python a

Re: why function got dictionary

En Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:06:08 -0300, AlFire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Q: why function got dictionary? What it is used for? If you want more details, see PEP 232 that introduced function writable attributes in Python 2.1: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0232/ -- Gabriel Genellina -- h

???Python Memory Management S***s???

Hi, people! Greetings~ These days I have been running a text processing program, written by python, of cause. In order to evaluate the memory operation, I used the codes below: """ > string1 = ['abcde']*99# this took up an obvious memory space... > del string1

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:55:51 -0300, Banibrata Dutta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Wanted to check if there is any known, reliable, FOSS/Libre -- Obfurscator > for Python 2.5 code. Why do you want to do that in the first place? There is very few you can do to obfuscate Python code. You can't re

Re: Request a short code review

En Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:10:09 -0300, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > lessons = self.lesson_data["lessons"] > if lesson_type: > lessons = [x for x in lessons if x["type"] == lesson_type] > > Changes: > - generator expression instead of filter The above is not a generator expression

Re: ???Python Memory Management S***s???

On 4/20/08, Hank @ITGroup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, people! > > Greetings~ > These days I have been running a text processing program, written by > python, of cause. > In order to evaluate the memory operation, I used the codes below: > > """ > > string1 = ['abcde']*99# this took up

Re: Python 2.5 adoption

On Apr 19, 1:08 am, Joseph Turian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How widely adopted is python 2.5? > > We are doing some development, and have a choice to make: > a) Use all the 2.5 features we want. > b) Maintain backwards compatability with 2.4. > There is another choice: Develop with future in mi

Re: installing MySQLdb module

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Re: ???Python Memory Management S***s???

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:40:26 +1000, Hank @ITGroup wrote: > In order to evaluate the memory operation, I used the codes below: > > """ > > string1 = ['abcde']*99# this took up an obvious memory space... > > del string1 # this freed the memory > successfully

Re: python setup.py install on Vista?

On Apr 19, 6:29 am, globalrev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > type "python setup.py install" > > that is used in most "addons" for python. > > well using windows vista, where the h*** am i supposed to type this? > > if it is not doable in windows, what do i have to do instead? just > clicking the setu

Re: ???Python Memory Management S***s???

On Apr 20, 9:40 am, "Hank @ITGroup" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, people! > > Greetings~ > These days I have been running a text processing program, written by > python, of cause. > In order to evaluate the memory operation, I used the codes below: > > """ >  > string1 = ['abcde']*99    # th

Re: 2's complement conversion. Is this right?

Bob Greschke wrote: > On 2008-04-18 23:35:12 -0600, Ivan Illarionov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > said: > >> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 04:45:54 +, Ivan Illarionov wrote: >> >>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:30:45 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote: >>> On 2008-04-18, Bob Greschke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >

Re: Checking if a text file is blank

Hi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Greetings! > > Is there any way in python to check if a text file is blank? obviously there are many ways, one simple way is to check length if its None then the file is blank. > > What I've tried to do so far is: > > f = file("friends.txt", "

Re: from __future__ import print

On Apr 13, 7:23 pm, Roy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In article > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > Lie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I wish py3k > > would make it an option whether to treat print as statement or > > function though. > > Arrrggh! No, don't even go there. If you want optional

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 6:55 AM, Banibrata Dutta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > Wanted to check if there is any known, reliable, FOSS/Libre -- Obfurscator > for Python 2.5 code. > What might work is to put all your code in python modules, generate .pyc, and then only distribute those. But yo

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Apology for the previous offensive title~~ :) Thanks, Rintsch, Arnaud and Daniel, for replying so soon. I redid the experiment. What following is the record - ``starting python``# == Windows Task Manager: Python.exe *4,076 *K memory-usage == >>> st1='abcdefg'*99

Re: from __future__ import print

Lie schrieb: > On Apr 13, 7:23 pm, Roy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> In article >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, >> >> Lie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> I wish py3k >>> would make it an option whether to treat print as statement or >>> function though. >> Arrrggh! No, don't even go there. If

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

On 4/20/08, Gabriel Genellina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:55:51 -0300, Banibrata Dutta < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > > Wanted to check if there is any known, reliable, FOSS/Libre -- > Obfurscator > > for Python 2.5 code. > > Why do you want to do that in the first p

Re: codec for html/xml entities!?

[Stefan Behnel] wrote & schrieb: >Martin Bless wrote: >> What's a good way to encode and decode those entities like € or >> € ? > >Hmm, since you provide code, I'm not quite sure what your actual question is. - What's a GOOD way? - Am I reinventing the wheel? - Are there well tested, fast, state

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:46:37 +1000, Hank @ITGroup wrote: > Apology for the previous offensive title~~ > :) > Thanks, Rintsch, Arnaud and Daniel, for replying so soon. > > I redid the experiment. What following is the record - > > ``starting python``# == Windows Task Manag

Re: Another MySQL Images Question

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 03:46:54 +0200, Karl-Heinz Ruskowski > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: > >> Hi, >> >>> cursor.execute('update products set pic1="%s" where id="%s", ;', >>> (pic1, id)) >> Shouldn't it be something like >> curso

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

Banibrata Dutta wrote: > > > On 4/20/08, *Gabriel Genellina* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: > > En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:55:51 -0300, Banibrata Dutta > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > escribió: > > > Wanted to check if there is any known, reli

Re: from __future__ import print

"Diez B. Roggisch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You are aware that it is only one character more to type? I'm not arguing for print vs. print(), but I do want to comment on the "character count" argument. I'm a pretty good typist, the result of having been forced in junior high school (in the

Re: codec for html/xml entities!?

Martin Bless wrote: > [Stefan Behnel] wrote & schrieb: >>> def entity2uc(entity): >>> """Convert entity like { to unichr. >>> >>> Return (result,True) on success or (input string, False) >>> otherwise. Example: >>> entity2cp('€') -> (u'\u20ac',True) >>> entity2cp('€')

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

On Apr 20, 2:46 pm, "Hank @ITGroup" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That is my question, after ``del``, sometimes the memory space returns > back as nothing happened, sometimes not... ... > What exactly was happening??? Python has a garbage collector. Objects that cannot be reached from any scope is

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Hank @ITGroup wrote: > Apology for the previous offensive title~~ > :) > Thanks, Rintsch, Arnaud and Daniel, for replying so soon. > > I redid the experiment. What following is the record - > > ``starting python``# == Windows Task Manager: > Python.exe *4,076 *K memory-u

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Re: python setup.py install on Vista?

> It seems that quite a lot of people wondered why python doesn't set > the environment variable to Python Path in the default installation. For several reasons, one being that it's not needed. Just run setup.py as a program, i.e. don't do python setup.py install but instead do setup.py install

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

Banibrata Dutta wrote: >>Wanted to check if there is any known, reliable, FOSS/Libre -- Obfurscator >> for Python 2.5 code. No, sadly, there is not. There are a number of applications I would be working on if it were possible to obfuscate pyc files. About the best you can do as of 2008/04 is use

Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

I was considering putting together a proposal for an alternate block syntax for python, and I figured I'd post it here and see what the general reactions are. I did some searching, and while I found a lot of tab vs space debates, I didn't see anything like what I'm thinking of, so forgive me if th

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:32:36 -0300, Banibrata Dutta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > On 4/20/08, Gabriel Genellina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 01:55:51 -0300, Banibrata Dutta < >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: >> >> > Wanted to check if there is any known, reliable, FOSS/Li

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

Eric Wertman schrieb: > I was considering putting together a proposal for an alternate block > syntax for python, and I figured I'd post it here and see what the > general reactions are. I did some searching, and while I found a lot > of tab vs space debates, I didn't see anything like what I'm th

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

On Apr 20, 11:35 am, Eric Wertman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was considering putting together a proposal for an alternate block > syntax for python, and I figured I'd post it here and see what the > general reactions are.  I did some searching, and while I found a lot > of tab vs space debates

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Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:46:37 -0300, Hank @ITGroup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > ``starting python``# == Windows Task Manager: > Python.exe *4,076 *K memory-usage == > >>> st1='abcdefg'*99 # == 10,952 K == > >>> del st1 # == *

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

> Look into any of the dozen Python-based template engines that are > typically used for such tasks; they offer many more features than a > way to indent blocks. > > George I definitely will.. could you throw out some examples though? Thanks! Eric -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyth

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

Christian Heimes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I feel that including some optional means to block code would be a big >> step in getting wider adoption of the language in web development and >> in general. I do understand though, that the current strict indenting >> is part of the core of the lan

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

On Apr 20, 5:42 pm, Matthew Woodcraft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Christian Heimes  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> I feel that including some optional means to block code would be a big > >> step in getting wider adoption of the language in web development and > >> in general.  I do understand

Re: Checking if a text file is blank

On Apr 20, 2:04 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Greetings! > > I've just started learning python, so this is probably one of those > obvious questions newbies ask. > > Is there any way in python to check if a text file is blank? > > What I've tried to do so far is: > > f = file("frie

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

Arnaud Delobelle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > By 'eval', I guess you mean 'exec' :) Yes. Shows how often I use either. -M- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

"Matthew Woodcraft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | There's no need to support the new scheme in .py files, so it seems to | me that this doesn't have to be done in the core language. All that's | needed is a variant of 'eval' which expects the alternate scheme, and

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:42:05 -0300, Matthew Woodcraft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > An alternative scheme for describing the block structure could be > useful in other cases, though. For example, if you wanted to support > putting snippets of Python in configuration files, or spreadsheet > cell

Re: Finally had to plonk google gorups.

"Gabriel Genellina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:23:57 -0300, Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Torsten Bronger wrote: >> The admistrative overhead of mailing lists is tedious. Fortunately, >> most important computer-related list

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Gabriel Genellina schrieb: > Apart from what everyone has already said, consider that FreqDist may import > other modules, store global state, create other objects... whatever. > Pure python code should not have any memory leaks (if there are, it's a bug > in the Python interpreter). Not-carefull

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

"Banibrata Dutta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Hmmm... but I'm aware of atleast 2 Obfuscators one commercial and one FOSS, | that seem to exist for Python. The commercial one is what I might try if I | don't find anything FOSS. The FOSS one seems to be a dead pr

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:43:17 -0300, Christian Heimes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Gabriel Genellina schrieb: >> Apart from what everyone has already said, consider that FreqDist may import >> other modules, store global state, create other objects... whatever. >> Pure python code should not h

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Hallöchen! Gabriel Genellina writes: > En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:43:17 -0300, Christian Heimes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escribió: > >> Gabriel Genellina schrieb: >> >>> Apart from what everyone has already said, consider that >>> FreqDist may import other modules, store global state, create >>> other o

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Christian Heimes wrote: > Gabriel Genellina schrieb: > >> Apart from what everyone has already said, consider that FreqDist may import >> other modules, store global state, create other objects... whatever. >> Pure python code should not have any memory leaks (if there are, it's a bug >> in th

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

On Apr 20, 5:28 pm, JB Stern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Curious Steve, how do you pay the rent and by what authority do you > speak for "The Python world"? Your opinion couldn't be more wrong for > programmers like myself who live by the code they write (as opposed to > its support). Are you

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

Terry Reedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But you do not really need a variant. Just define a preprocessor > function 'blockify' which converts code in an alternate syntax to > regular indented block syntax. Then > > exec(blockify(alt_code_string)) You can do it like that, but if it were to beco

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

JB "My first post on c.l.py" Stern wrote: > Banibrata Dutta wrote: >>> Wanted to check if there is any known, reliable, FOSS/Libre -- Obfurscator >>> for Python 2.5 code. > > No, sadly, there is not. There are a number of applications I would be > working on if it were possible to obfuscate pyc f

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

On Apr 20, 1:29 pm, "Gabriel Genellina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:42:05 -0300, Matthew Woodcraft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escribió: > > > An alternative scheme for describing the block structure could be > > useful in other cases, though. For example, if you wanted to suppor

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

> Pure Python code can cause memory leaks. No, that's not a bug in the > interpreter but the fault of the developer. For example code that messes > around with stack frames and exception object can cause nasty reference > leaks. Can you give an example, please? Regards, Martin -- http://mail.pyt

Re: Any reliable obfurscator for Python 2.5

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, sturlamolden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Apr 20, 5:28 pm, JB Stern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Curious Steve, how do you pay the rent and by what authority do you > > speak for "The Python world"? Your opinion couldn't be more wrong for > > programmers

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Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:02:37 -0300, Torsten Bronger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Gabriel Genellina writes: >> En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:43:17 -0300, Christian Heimes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> escribió: >>> Gabriel Genellina schrieb: >>> Apart from what everyone has already said, consider that >>

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

> In order to deal with 400 thousands texts consisting of 80 million > words, and huge sets of corpora , I have to be care about the memory > things. I need to track every word's behavior, so there needs to be as > many word-objects as words. > I am really suffering from the memory problem, even 4G

What happened with python? messed strings?

Hi, I used extensively python and now I find this mess with strings, I can't even reproduce tutorial examples: >>> "apfel".encode('utf-8') (it was with umlaut) File "", line 0 ^ SyntaxError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc4 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128) >>> Is there a

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

On 20 avr, 17:35, Eric Wertman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was considering putting together a proposal for an alternate block > syntax for python, and I figured I'd post it here and see what the > general reactions are. I did some searching, and while I found a lot > of tab vs space debates, I

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Steve Holden wrote: > > You are suffering from a pathological condition yourself: the desire > to optimize performance in an area where you do not have any problems. > I would suggest you just enjoy using Python and then start to ask > these questions again when you have a real issue that's stop

Re: python setup.py install on Vista?

On Apr 20, 9:59 pm, "Martin v. Löwis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It seems that quite a lot of people wondered why python doesn't set > > the environment variable to Python Path in the default installation. > > For several reasons, one being that it's not needed. Just run setup.py > as a program

Re: What happened with python? messed strings?

On Apr 20, 7:54 pm, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] > python should have stayed at version 1.5, every single 'improvement' > has been a mess. But this is the definitive hell. You can still download Python 1.5.2 from python.org: http://www.python.org/download/releases/1.5/ HTH -- Arnaud -- ht

Re: What happened with python? messed strings?

En Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:54:20 -0300, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > I used extensively python and now I find this mess with strings, > I can't even reproduce tutorial examples: "apfel".encode('utf-8') (it was with umlaut) > File "", line 0 >^ > SyntaxError: 'ascii' codec can't decode b

Re: socket.AF_INET

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Re: What happened with python? messed strings?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Hi, > I used extensively python and now I find this mess with strings, > I can't even reproduce tutorial examples: "apfel".encode('utf-8') (it was with umlaut) > File "", line 0 > > ^ > SyntaxError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc4 in position 1:

Re: What happened with python? messed strings?

On Apr 20, 11:54 am, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > I used extensively python and now I find this mess with strings, > I can't even reproduce tutorial examples:>>> "apfel".encode('utf-8')  (it was > with umlaut) > >   File "", line 0 > >     ^ > SyntaxError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc

Re: What happened with python? messed strings?

Juergen Perlinger wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [snip] > Basically you're not using ASCII encoding in your source text... You need > to define an encoding for your source if you're using german umlauts or > other fancy stuff. > > See chapter 2.1.4 of the reference manual, and add e.g. > >

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Hank @ITGroup schrieb: > In order to deal with 400 thousands texts consisting of 80 million > words, and huge sets of corpora , I have to be care about the memory > things. I need to track every word's behavior, so there needs to be as > many word-objects as words. > I am really suffering from the

Re: What happened with python? messed strings?

Jason Scheirer wrote: [snip] > > It's true -- decorators, the class/type cleanup, properties, -= and > +=, list comprehensions, generators, distutils, and all the new > modules in the standard library are completely, entirely useless. > Python SHOULD have stayed at 1.5. totally OT, but just a few

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

On Apr 20, 9:09 pm, "Hank @ITGroup" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Could you please give us some clear clues to obviously call python to > free memory. We want to control its gc operation handily as we were > using J**A. If you want to get rid of a Python object, the only way to do that is to get r

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Martin v. Löwis schrieb: > Can you give an example, please? http://trac.edgewall.org/ contains at least one example of a reference leak. It's holding up the release of 0.11 for a while. *scnr* The problem is also covered by the docs at http://docs.python.org/dev/library/sys.html#sys.exc_info Chr

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Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

> http://trac.edgewall.org/ contains at least one example of a reference > leak. It's holding up the release of 0.11 for a while. *scnr* All my investigations on possible memory leaks in Trac have only confirmed that Python does _not_, I repeat, it does *NOT* leak any memory in Trac. Instead, wha

Re: cherrypy-webapp-code?

> anyone have a small cherrypy-webapp and are willing to post the code. > could be a nonsense-app just wanna see some code. > -- > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > Did you try google? And the cherrypy website? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: I would like to learn scripting in Python too!

> I am a software tester and I see lot of testers on the forums saying Python > is a wonderful scripting language that testers use on a daily basis. > > I would also like to learn to script in Python but I do not have any > programming background. This is a good starting point: http://wiki.python

Re: "Help needed - I don't understand how Python manages memory"

Hank @ITGroup wrote: > Steve Holden wrote: >> You are suffering from a pathological condition yourself: the desire >> to optimize performance in an area where you do not have any problems. >> I would suggest you just enjoy using Python and then start to ask >> these questions again when you have

Re: Alternate indent proposal for python 3000

On Apr 20, 12:34 pm, Eric Wertman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Look into any of the dozen Python-based template engines that are > > typically used for such tasks; they offer many more features than a > > way to indent blocks. > > > George > > I definitely will.. could you throw out some examples

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