alex23 wrote:
This is my biggest issue with Knuth's view of literate programming. If
the generated source isn't readable, am I just supposed to trust it?
How can I tell if an error lies in my expression of the algorithm or
in the code generation itself?
Knuth would say that the code generator
Martin P. Hellwig ha scritto:
On 05/04/10 12:59, superpollo wrote:
Martin P. Hellwig ha scritto:
For the corner cases (I can think of a couple) it is good to know you
can use ';' most of the time.
most but not always as i noted (think about loops or function definition)
Well through in s
On 05/04/10 12:59, superpollo wrote:
Martin P. Hellwig ha scritto:
For the corner cases (I can think of a couple) it is good to know you
can use ';' most of the time.
most but not always as i noted (think about loops or function definition)
Well through in some exec magic then, for exampl
On 5/5/2010 4:50 AM, Dave Angel wrote:
alex23 wrote:
Ed Keith wrote:
Knuth wanted the generated source to be unreadable, so people would
not be tempted to edit the generated code.
This is my biggest issue with Knuth's view of literate programming. If
the generated source isn't readable, am I
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, alex23 wrote:
> From: alex23
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: python-list@python.org
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 8:47 PM
> Ed Keith
> wrote:
> > Knuth wanted the generated source to be unreadable, so
> people would not be tempted
alex23 wrote:
Ed Keith wrote:
Knuth wanted the generated source to be unreadable, so people would not be
tempted to edit the generated code.
This is my biggest issue with Knuth's view of literate programming. If
the generated source isn't readable, am I just supposed to trust it?
How
Ed Keith wrote:
> Knuth wanted the generated source to be unreadable, so people would not be
> tempted to edit the generated code.
This is my biggest issue with Knuth's view of literate programming. If
the generated source isn't readable, am I just supposed to trust it?
How can I tell if an erro
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> From: Stefan Behnel
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: python-list@python.org
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 11:52 AM
> Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 17:43:
> > The PITA is having to keep track of the indentation of
> each embedd
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 2:16 PM, superpollo wrote:
> superpollo ha scritto:
>>
>> James Mills ha scritto:
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:56 PM, superpollo wrote:
of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that defines
a
function i am back again to the problem:
superpollo ha scritto:
superpollo ha scritto:
James Mills ha scritto:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:56 PM, superpollo wrote:
of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that
defines a
function i am back again to the problem:
One-liner:
$ python
Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 27 2
On 5/4/2010 1:44 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2010 12:06:10 -0400, Terry Reedy
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:
Speak for yourself, please. For two decades before I met Python, I
indented code nicely whenever it was allowed. That option was one of the
great a
superpollo ha scritto:
James Mills ha scritto:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:56 PM, superpollo wrote:
of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that
defines a
function i am back again to the problem:
One-liner:
$ python
Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 27 2010, 18:26:49)
[GCC 4.4.
James Mills ha scritto:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:56 PM, superpollo wrote:
of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that defines a
function i am back again to the problem:
One-liner:
$ python
Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 27 2010, 18:26:49)
[GCC 4.4.1 (CRUX)] on linux2
Type
superpollo, 04.05.2010 17:55:
since i have some kind of computer literacy (as opposed to most of my
colleagues), some years ago i was kindly asked to try and solve a
"simple" particular problem, that is to write a program that generates
math exercises (q+a) from an example taken from the textbook
Terry Reedy wrote:
On 5/3/2010 7:46 PM, cjw wrote:
Nobody likes indentation at first,
Speak for yourself, please. For two decades before I met Python, I
indented code nicely whenever it was allowed. That option was one of
the great advancements of Fortran77 over FortranIV. Coming from C, I
Ethan Furman wrote:
Andre
Engels wrote:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:35 PM, James Mills
wrote:
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Ed Keith wrote:
To deal with indentation I had to
1) keep track of indentation of all chunks of code embedded in the
document and indent inserted chunks to the
On 5/4/2010 8:46 AM, superpollo wrote:
but i do not think i can use it myself, since my template system wants
the input to generate the code to stay on a single line ( don't ask :-( )
I think we can agree that Python (unlike C, for instance) is not good
for writing non-humanly-readable one-un
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 17:43:
>> The PITA is having to keep track of the indentation of each embedded
>> chunk and summing it for each level of indentation. This requires a fair
>> amount of bookkeeping that would not otherwise be necessary.
>>
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:49 AM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
> On Wed, 5 May 2010 00:35:18 +1000
> James Mills wrote:
>> In my experience of non-indentation sensitive languages
>> such as C-class (curly braces) it's just as hard to keep track
>> of opening and closing braces.
>
> Harder. That was the
On Tue, 4 May 2010 17:00:11 +0200
Andre Engels wrote:
> Although I have little or no experience with this, I still dare to say
> that I don't agree. The difference is that in C you do not _need_ to
> know where in the braces-defined hierarchy you are. You just embed or
> change a piece of code at
On 5/3/2010 7:46 PM, cjw wrote:
Nobody likes indentation at first,
Speak for yourself, please. For two decades before I met Python, I
indented code nicely whenever it was allowed. That option was one of the
great advancements of Fortran77 over FortranIV. Coming from C, I was
immediately gla
superpollo ha scritto:
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
superpollo, 04.05.2010 14:46:
my template system wants
the input to generate the code to stay on a single line ( don't ask
:-( )
I hope you don't mind if I still ask. What are you generating and for
what templating system?
ok, since you ask
Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 17:43:
The PITA is having to keep track of the indentation of each embedded
chunk and summing it for each level of indentation. This requires a fair
amount of bookkeeping that would not otherwise be necessary.
The original prototype simply replaced each embedded chunk with t
Ed Keith wrote:
> Tabs are always a problem when writing Python. I get
> around this problem by setting my text editor to expand
> all tabs with spaces when editing Python, but I have had
> problems when coworkers have not done this.
It's best not to trust others to do the right thing. I do trust
On Wed, 5 May 2010 00:35:18 +1000
James Mills wrote:
> In my experience of non-indentation sensitive languages
> such as C-class (curly braces) it's just as hard to keep track
> of opening and closing braces.
Harder. That was the big "Aha!" for me with Python. My first
programming language was
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> From: Stefan Behnel
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: python-list@python.org
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 11:33 AM
> Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 15:19:
> > --- On Tue, 5/4/10, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> >> Ed Keith, 04.05
Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 15:19:
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Stefan Behnel wrote:
Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 14:15:
Python is a great language to write in (although I do
wish it did a better job with closures). But it is a PITA to
generate code for!
Interesting. Could you elaborate a bit? Could you give a
short
Andre Engels wrote:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:35 PM, James Mills
wrote:
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Ed Keith wrote:
To deal with indentation I had to
1) keep track of indentation of all chunks of code embedded in the
document and indent inserted chunks to the sum of all the
i
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Andre Engels wrote:
> From: Andre Engels
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: "James Mills"
> Cc: "python list"
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 11:00 AM
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:35 PM, James
> Mills
>
> wrote:
> &g
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, James Mills wrote:
> From: James Mills
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: "python list"
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 10:35 AM
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Ed
> Keith
> wrote:
> > To deal with indentation I had to
> >
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:35 PM, James Mills
wrote:
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Ed Keith wrote:
>> To deal with indentation I had to
>>
>> 1) keep track of indentation of all chunks of code embedded in the
>> document and indent inserted chunks to the sum of all the
>> indentati
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Ed Keith wrote:
> To deal with indentation I had to
>
> 1) keep track of indentation of all chunks of code embedded in the
> document and indent inserted chunks to the sum of all the
> indentation of the enclosing chunks.
In my experience of non-indent
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, alex23 wrote:
> From: alex23
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: python-list@python.org
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 10:06 AM
> Ed Keith
> wrote:
> > For more information on Literate Programming in
> general see the following links.
>
Ed Keith wrote:
> For more information on Literate Programming in general see the following
> links.
None of which address the question of what you found problematic about
generating Python code. Was it issues with indentation?
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
superpollo, 04.05.2010 14:46:
my template system wants
the input to generate the code to stay on a single line ( don't ask :-( )
I hope you don't mind if I still ask. What are you generating and for
what templating system?
ok, since you asked for it, prepare yourse
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> From: Stefan Behnel
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: python-list@python.org
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 8:40 AM
> Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 14:15:
> > I wrote AsciiLitProg (http://asciilitprog.berlios.de/) in Python.
superpollo, 04.05.2010 14:46:
my template system wants
the input to generate the code to stay on a single line ( don't ask :-( )
I hope you don't mind if I still ask. What are you generating and for what
templating system?
Stefan
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
superpollo, 04.05.2010 13:56:
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
The question is: why do you have to generate the above code in the
first place? Isn't a function enough that does the above?
of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that defines
a function [.
Ed Keith, 04.05.2010 14:15:
I wrote AsciiLitProg (http://asciilitprog.berlios.de/) in Python. It is
a literate programming tool. It generates code from a document. It can
generate code in any language the author wants. It would have been a LOT
easier to write if it did not generate Python code.
superpollo, 04.05.2010 13:56:
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
The question is: why do you have to generate the above code in the
first place? Isn't a function enough that does the above?
of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that defines
a function [...]
Well, could you provi
James Mills ha scritto:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:56 PM, superpollo wrote:
of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that defines a
function i am back again to the problem:
One-liner:
$ python
Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 27 2010, 18:26:49)
[GCC 4.4.1 (CRUX)] on linux2
Type
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:23 AM, superpollo wrote:
> Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
>>
>> superpollo, 04.05.2010 12:28:
>>>
>>> i think there is an issue if you -- say -- produce python code, from
>>> within another programming environment, to be executed on the fly, at
>>> least in some instances. ther
--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> From: Stefan Behnel
> Subject: Re: Teaching Programming
> To: python-list@python.org
> Date: Tuesday, May 4, 2010, 7:43 AM
> superpollo, 04.05.2010 13:23:
> > Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
> >> the main reason why this problem
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:56 PM, superpollo wrote:
> of course! *but* if i must generate on-the-fly python code that defines a
> function i am back again to the problem:
One-liner:
$ python
Python 2.6.5 (r265:79063, Apr 27 2010, 18:26:49)
[GCC 4.4.1 (CRUX)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "cr
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Stefan Behnel wrote:
>> Python 2.5.4 (r254:67916, Feb 17 2009, 20:16:45)
>> [GCC 4.3.3] on linux2
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>> >>> A,B=2,3
>> >>> if A>B:
>> ... print A+B
>> ... else:
>> ... print A**B-B**2
>> ...
>>
Martin P. Hellwig ha scritto:
On 05/04/10 11:28, superpollo wrote:
Samuel Williams ha scritto:
I personally like indentation.
I just wonder whether it is an issue that some people will dislike.
there might be problems if for example you
generate code from a one-line template.
Well a one-l
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
superpollo, 04.05.2010 13:23:
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
the main reason why this problem doesn't hurt much in Python
is that Python is a dynamic language that can get you extremely far
without generating code. It's simply not necessary in most cases, so
people don't ru
superpollo, 04.05.2010 13:23:
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
the main reason why this problem doesn't hurt much in Python
is that Python is a dynamic language that can get you extremely far
without generating code. It's simply not necessary in most cases, so
people don't run into problems with it.
On 05/04/10 11:28, superpollo wrote:
Samuel Williams ha scritto:
I personally like indentation.
I just wonder whether it is an issue that some people will dislike.
there might be problems if for example you
generate code from a one-line template.
Well a one-line template code generator are
Stefan Behnel ha scritto:
superpollo, 04.05.2010 12:28:
i think there is an issue if you -- say -- produce python code, from
within another programming environment, to be executed on the fly, at
least in some instances. there might be problems if for example you
generate code from a one-line tem
superpollo, 04.05.2010 12:28:
i think there is an issue if you -- say -- produce python code, from
within another programming environment, to be executed on the fly, at
least in some instances. there might be problems if for example you
generate code from a one-line template.
There are a couple
Samuel Williams ha scritto:
I personally like indentation.
I just wonder whether it is an issue that some people will dislike.
i think there is an issue if you -- say -- produce python code, from
within another programming environment, to be executed on the fly, at
least in some instances. t
I personally like indentation.
I just wonder whether it is an issue that some people will dislike.
But anyway, I updated the language comparison to remove this critique.
Kind regards,
Samuel
On 4/05/2010, at 9:22 PM, Jean-Michel Pichavant wrote:
> André wrote:
>> To Samuel Williams:(and ot
André wrote:
To Samuel Williams:(and other interested ;-)
If you want to consider Python in education, I would encourage you
have a look at http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/
I think you will find that there are quite a few resources available -
perhaps more than you are
> Nobody likes indentation at first, it is different.
For what it's worth, I didn't have a programming background, and I
liked Python's indentation right from the start. I was used to
thinking in terms of indentation from writing and word processing
documents with subordinate sections, so I fo
On 03-May-10 09:38 AM, Samuel Williams wrote:
Dear Chris,
Thanks for reading further into the site.
Yes, it is complicated to provide a good comparison. It isn't always accurate
and I welcome feedback.
Please be aware that orange does not mean problem - it simply means take note that there
m
To Samuel Williams:(and other interested ;-)
If you want to consider Python in education, I would encourage you
have a look at http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/
I think you will find that there are quite a few resources available -
perhaps more than you are aware of.
And,
On 5/3/2010 9:38 AM, Samuel Williams wrote:
Dear Chris,
Thanks for reading further into the site.
Yes, it is complicated to provide a good comparison. It isn't always
accurate and I welcome feedback.
Please be aware that orange does not mean problem - it simply means
take note that there may b
f nearly each statement in Perl,
that it is hard to understand and debug unless you're using
it several hours a day (each day).
What convinced me is clearly written in
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882
Please have a look at it,
Helmut.
(I'm teaching programming for more than 15
Dear Chris,
I will take your feedback into consideration and let you know the outcome when
I have time to think about it.
Again, I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to think about
the comparison chart.
Kind regards,
Samuel
On 4/05/2010, at 1:58 AM, Chris Rebert wrote:
>> I
> On 4/05/2010, at 1:06 AM, Chris Rebert wrote:
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Chris Rebert wrote:
>>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Samuel Williams
>>> wrote:
In particular, "Why would I learn this language?" section needs to have a
few paragraphs. I don't use Python predominant
Dear Chris,
Thanks for reading further into the site.
Yes, it is complicated to provide a good comparison. It isn't always accurate
and I welcome feedback.
Please be aware that orange does not mean problem - it simply means take note
that there may be potential issues that you need to consider
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Chris Rebert wrote:
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Samuel Williams
> wrote:
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>> I'm looking for some help from the Python community. I hope this is the
>> right place to ask for information.
>>
>> I'm putting together a website aimed at high s
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:05 AM, Samuel Williams
wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I'm looking for some help from the Python community. I hope this is the
> right place to ask for information.
>
> I'm putting together a website aimed at high school students and teachers,
> and would like to make sure the
Dear Friends,
I'm looking for some help from the Python community. I hope this is the right
place to ask for information.
I'm putting together a website aimed at high school students and teachers, and
would like to make sure the following page is as good as possible:
http://programming
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