On 03/30/2012 06:25 AM, Steve Howell wrote:
On Mar 29, 11:53 am, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
Well, what sort of language differences make for English vs Mandarin?
Relational algebraic-style programming is useful, but definitely a
large language barrier to people that don't know any SQL. I think th
Re-trolling.
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
>> As part of my troll-outreach effort, I will indulge here. I was
>> specifically thinking about some earlier claims that programming
>> languages as they currently exist are somehow inherently superior to a
>> formalized natur
> The "building cabinets" problem is interesting:
>
> 1. To actually build a cabinet, there's a lot of domain knowledge
> that's probably implicit in most circumstances. A carpenter might
> tell another carpenter which hinge to use, but they won't have to talk
> about why doors need hinges or how
> Long personal note ahead.
> tl;dr version: Computers are such a large shift for human civilization
> that generally we dont get what that shift is about or towards.
Another option: since *computers* are such a general device, there
isn't just one notion.
> In the long run I expect computing sci
On Apr 3, 11:19 pm, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 08:39:14 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
> > Much like
> > with the terminal to GUI transition, you will have people attacking
> > declarative natural language programming as a stupid practice for noobs,
> > and the end of computing (even
On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> Lets start with some analogies. In cooking, chefs use recipes to
> produce a meal; the recipe is not a tool. In architecture, a builder
> uses a blueprint to produce a building; the blueprint is not a tool.
> In manufacturing, expensive machines use plans
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:49 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 13:17:18 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
>
>> I have never met a programmer that was not completely into computers.
>> That leaves a lot unspecified though.
>
> You haven't looked hard enough. There are *thousands* of VB, Java,
On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 08:39:14 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
> Much like
> with the terminal to GUI transition, you will have people attacking
> declarative natural language programming as a stupid practice for noobs,
> and the end of computing (even though it will allow people with much
> less experien
On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 13:17:18 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
> I have never met a programmer that was not completely into computers.
> That leaves a lot unspecified though.
You haven't looked hard enough. There are *thousands* of VB, Java, etc.
code monkeys who got into programming for the money only
On 03/04/2012 19:42, Nathan Rice wrote:
I view "computer science" as applied mathematics, when it deserves
that moniker. When it doesn't, it is merely engineering.
Is it still April first in your time zone?
--
Cheers.
Mark Lawrence.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:
> >
> > > Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
> > > to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does
> > > a chef describe a recipe? How does a
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Lawrence [mailto:breamore...@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, 4 April 2012 3:16 a.m.
> To: python-list@python.org
> Subject: Re: Number of languages known [was Re: Python is readable] -
> somewhat OT
>
> On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chri
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:
>
>> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
>> to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
>> chef describe a recipe? How does a carpenter describe
On 4/3/2012 8:39 AM, Nathan Rice wrote:
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
chef describe a recipe? How does a carpenter describe the process of
building cabinets? Aside from specific words,
>> > A carpenter uses his tools -- screwdriver, saw, planer --to do
>> > carpentry
>> > A programmer uses his tools to to programming -- one of which is
>> > called 'programming language'
>>
>> > Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
>> > to tighten screws
>>
>> I w
All this futuristic grandiloquence:
On Apr 3, 10:17 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> The crux of my view is that programming languages exist in part
> because computers in general are not smart enough to converse with
> humans on their own level, so we have to talk to them like autistic 5
> year-olds. T
On 2012-04-03, Dave Angel wrote:
> And I worked on a system where the microcode was in ROM, and
> there was a "patch board" consisting of lots of diodes and some
> EPROMs. The diodes were soldered into place to specfy the
> instruction(s) to be patched, and the actual patches were in
> the EPROMs
On Apr 3, 9:15 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, rusi wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice
> > wrote:
>
> >> Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".
>
> >> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
> >> to see. How does a surge
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Nathan Rice
> wrote:
>> Did you miss the part where I said that most people who learn to
>> program are fascinated by computers and highly motivated to do so?
>> I've never met a BROgrammer, those people go into s
On 04/03/2012 11:16 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant
>> Edwards wrote:
>>> Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS "patch" utility? Apparently, DEC
>>> thought it was a practical way to fix things. It had a built-in
>>> assemb
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:51 AM, rusi wrote:
> On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice
> wrote:
>>
>> Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".
>>
>> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
>> to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
>>
On 03/04/2012 15:56, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS "patch" utility? Apparently, DEC
thought it was a practical way to fix things. It had a built-in
assembler and let you "insert" new code into a function by
auto-allo
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 1:01 AM, Ian Kelly wrote:
> Real programmers are much more complex.
Are you saying that some part of all of us is imaginary??
ChrisA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> Did you miss the part where I said that most people who learn to
> program are fascinated by computers and highly motivated to do so?
> I've never met a BROgrammer, those people go into sales. It isn't
> because there aren't smart BROmosapiens
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> Anybody remember DEC's VAX/VMS "patch" utility? Apparently, DEC
> thought it was a practical way to fix things. It had a built-in
> assembler and let you "insert" new code into a function by
> auto-allocating a location for the new code an
On 2012-04-03, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Mark Lawrence
> wrote:
>> On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
>>> Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
>>> to tighten screws
>>
>>
>> The latter is extremely difficult if you bite your toenails
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
>> Doing programming without programming languages is like using toenails
>> to tighten screws
>
>
> The latter is extremely difficult if you bite your toenails :)
I agree, thumbnails are far better suited. M
On 03/04/2012 14:51, rusi wrote:
On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:
Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".
Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
chef describe a recipe? How d
On Apr 3, 5:39 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:
>
> Don't think "underlying", instead think "canonical".
>
> Ultimately, the answers to your questions exist in the world for you
> to see. How does a surgeon describe a surgical procedure? How does a
> chef describe a recipe? How does a carpenter describe
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:40 AM, alex23 wrote:
> On Apr 3, 2:55 pm, Nathan Rice
> wrote:
>> I don't care what people do related to legacy systems.
>
> And that's what earns you the label 'architecture astronaut'. Legacy
> systems are _part_ of the problem; it's very easy to hold to a purist
> app
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT), Steve Howell
> declaimed the following in
> gmane.comp.python.general:
>
> REXX is inhibited by the architectures to which it has been ported
> -- limiting the ADDRESS targets to variations
On Apr 3, 2:55 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> I don't care what people do related to legacy systems.
And that's what earns you the label 'architecture astronaut'. Legacy
systems are _part_ of the problem; it's very easy to hold to a purist
approach when you ignore the bulk of the domain that causes th
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 11:18 PM, alex23 wrote:
> On Mar 30, 3:37 pm, Nathan Rice
> wrote:
>> We live in a world where the tools that are used are based on
>> tradition (read that as backwards compatibility if it makes you feel
>> better) and as a mechanism for deriving personal identity. The wor
On Apr 2, 2:50 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Steve Howell wrote:
> > I agree with you on the overall point, but I think that Python
> > actually does a fine job of replacing REXX and PHP. I've used both of
> > the latter (and, of course, Python). REXX and PHP are
PHP is a language that I wish would die off quickly and
gracefully. I feel like the good things of PHP have already
been subsumed into the ecosystems of stronger programming
languages (including Python).
The one killer feature PHP has to offer over other languages:
ease of efficient deployment
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 6:23 AM, Steve Howell wrote:
> On Mar 31, 1:13 pm, Tim Rowe wrote:
>>
>> I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
>>
>
> Well, that means you know at least two programming languages, which
> puts you ahead of a lot of people. :)
That's enoug
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Steve Howell wrote:
> I agree with you on the overall point, but I think that Python
> actually does a fine job of replacing REXX and PHP. I've used both of
> the latter (and, of course, Python). REXX and PHP are great at what
> they do, but I don't think their s
On Mar 30, 3:37 pm, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> We live in a world where the tools that are used are based on
> tradition (read that as backwards compatibility if it makes you feel
> better) and as a mechanism for deriving personal identity. The world
> is backwards and retarded in many, many ways, this
On Mar 31, 1:13 pm, Tim Rowe wrote:
>
> I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
>
Well, that means you know at least two programming languages, which
puts you ahead of a lot of people. :)
Some folks, when confronted with a problem, decide to solve it with
binary
On Mar 30, 4:37 am, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan Rice
>
> wrote:
> > Well, a lisp-like language. I would also argue that if you are using
> > macros to do anything, the thing you are trying to do should classify
> > as "not natural in lisp" :)
>
> You would r
On Mar 29, 9:42 am, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
> > suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
> > of them. I mention SQL because, even if you were to
On Mar 29, 11:53 am, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> Well, what sort of language differences make for English vs Mandarin?
> Relational algebraic-style programming is useful, but definitely a
> large language barrier to people that don't know any SQL. I think this
> is reasonable. (It would not matter
On Mar 29, 7:03 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Nathan Rice
>
> wrote:
> > We would be better off if all the time that was spent on learning
> > syntax, memorizing library organization and becoming proficient with
> > new tools was spent learning the mathematics, log
Tim Rowe wrote:
On 22 March 2012 19:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
In any case, though, I agree that there's a lot of people
professionally writing code who would know about the 3-4 that you say.
I'm just not sure that they're any good at coding, even in those few
languages. All the best people I'v
On Sat, 2012-03-31 at 18:55 -0400, David Robinow wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Tim Rowe wrote:
>
> > I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
> The fact that you know there are bases other than 10 puts you in the
> top half of the candidates already!
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Tim Rowe wrote:
> I know 10 languages. But I'm not telling you what base that number is :)
The fact that you know there are bases other than 10 puts you in the
top half of the candidates already!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On 22 March 2012 19:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> In any case, though, I agree that there's a lot of people
> professionally writing code who would know about the 3-4 that you say.
> I'm just not sure that they're any good at coding, even in those few
> languages. All the best people I've ever know
>> Here's a thought experiment. Imagine that you have a project tree on
>> your file system which includes files written in many different
>> programming languages. Imagine that the files can be assumed to be
>> contiguous for our purposes, so you could view all the files in the
>> project as one
On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:48:40 -0400, Nathan Rice wrote:
> Here's a thought experiment. Imagine that you have a project tree on
> your file system which includes files written in many different
> programming languages. Imagine that the files can be assumed to be
> contiguous for our purposes, so y
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan Rice
> wrote:
>> Well, a lisp-like language. I would also argue that if you are using
>> macros to do anything, the thing you are trying to do should classify
>> as "not natural in lisp" :)
>
> You
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> Well, a lisp-like language. I would also argue that if you are using
> macros to do anything, the thing you are trying to do should classify
> as "not natural in lisp" :)
You would run into disagreement. Some people feel that the lisp
philoso
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Of course it's POSSIBLE. You can write everything in Ook if you want
> to. But any attempt to merge all programming languages into one will
> either:
In that particular quote, I was saying that the reason that you
claimed we can't merge lan
> >> You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
> >> suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
> >> of them. I mention SQL because, even if you were to unify all
> >> programming languages, you'd still need other non-application
> >> languages to get t
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 3:42 AM, Devin Jeanpierre
wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
>> suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
>> of them. I mention SQL because, even if y
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
wrote:
> Agreed with your entire first chunk 100%. Woohoo! High five. :)
Damn, then I'm not trolling hard enough ಠ_ಠ
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Nathan Rice
> wrote:
>> transformations on lists of data are natural in Lisp, but graph
>> tr
Agreed with your entire first chunk 100%. Woohoo! High five. :)
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> transformations on lists of data are natural in Lisp, but graph
> transformations are not, making some things awkward.
Eh, earlier you make some argument towards lisp being a uni
On 03/29/12 12:48, Nathan Rice wrote:
Of course, this describes Lisp to some degree, so I still need to
provide some answers. What is wrong with Lisp? I would say that the
base syntax being horrible is probably the biggest issue.
Do you mean something like:
((so (describes Lisp (to degree so
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Nathan Rice
> wrote:
>> We would be better off if all the time that was spent on learning
>> syntax, memorizing library organization and becoming proficient with
>> new tools was spent learning the mathema
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> You can't merge all of them without making a language that's
> suboptimal at most of those tasks - probably, one that's woeful at all
> of them. I mention SQL because, even if you were to unify all
> programming languages, you'd still need
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Nathan Rice
wrote:
> We would be better off if all the time that was spent on learning
> syntax, memorizing library organization and becoming proficient with
> new tools was spent learning the mathematics, logic and engineering
> sciences. Those solve problems, l
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Rodrick Brown
> wrote:
>> The best skill any developer can have is the ability to pickup languages
>> very quickly and know what tools work well for which task.
>
> Definitely. Not just languages but all
On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Rodrick Brown wrote:
> The best skill any developer can have is the ability to pickup languages very
> quickly and know what tools work well for which task.
Definitely. Not just languages but all tools. The larger your toolkit
and the better you know it, the mor
At my current firm we hire people who are efficient in one of the following and
familiar with any another C#, Java, C++, Perl, Python or Ruby.
We then expect developers to quickly pick up any of the following languages we
use in house which is very broad. In our source repository not including t
On 25 March 2012 11:03, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 03/24/12 17:08, Tim Delaney wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. 10 years ago (when I was just a young lad) I'd say that I'd
>> *forgotten* at least 20 programming languages. That number has only
>> increased.
>>
>
> And in the case of COBOL for me, it wasn't just
On 03/24/12 17:08, Tim Delaney wrote:
Absolutely. 10 years ago (when I was just a young lad) I'd say that I'd
*forgotten* at least 20 programming languages. That number has only
increased.
And in the case of COBOL for me, it wasn't just forgotten, but
actively repressed ;-)
-tkc
--
http:/
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tim Delaney
wrote:
> Being able to pick up a new language (skill, technology, methodology, etc)
> is IMO the most important skill for a developer to have. Pick it up quickly,
> become proficient with it, leave it alone for a couple of years, pick up the
> new versi
On 23 March 2012 06:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
> > The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages
> > moderately well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, and might
> > have a nodding acquaintance with one or two more.
On 03/23/2012 02:28 PM, Peter Otten wrote:
Ethan Furman wrote:
Nathan Rice wrote:
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
+1 QOTW
Surely you're joking, Mr Furman!
Cracking safes was the best chapter.
--
DaveA
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Ethan Furman wrote:
> Nathan Rice wrote:
>> Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
>
> +1 QOTW
Surely you're joking, Mr Furman!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Nathan Rice wrote:
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
+1 QOTW
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
I had forgotten all about that, I should add that to my resume!
I wonder what kind of job I could get writing primarily in Logo?
Ramit
Ramit Prasad | JPMorgan Chase Investment Bank | Currencies Technology
712 Main Street | Houston, TX 77002
work phone: 713
> I confess--I've never learned LilyPond, Modula-2, or LPC! I mean, of
> course they're on my resume, just to get by HR screening, but that's
> just between you and me...
You mean, you, him, this mailing list, and anyone that looks on the
archives...
Ramit
Ramit Prasad | JPMorgan Chase Investm
Logo. It's turtles all the way down.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 7:04 PM, Steve Howell wrote:
> If you're that adept at learning languages, then I recommend learning
> Ruby just for kicks, but you're not missing *that* much, trust me.
> I'd skip past Ruby and learn CoffeeScript.
Sure. When I have some spare time... lessee, I think I hav
On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:14:46 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> > wrote:
> >> The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages moderately
> >> well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, an
On Mar 23, 12:05 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Steve Howell wrote:
> > On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano > +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> >> In any case, I'm not talking about the best developers. I'm talking about
> >> the typical developer, who by de
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Steve Howell wrote:
> On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> In any case, I'm not talking about the best developers. I'm talking about
>> the typical developer, who by definition is just average. They probably
>> know reason
On Mar 22, 12:14 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>
> wrote:
> > The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages
> > moderately well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, and might
> > have a nodding acquaintance with one or two more.
>
On Mar 22, 6:11 pm, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:14:46 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > In any case, though, I agree that there's a lot of people professionally
> > writing code who would know about the 3-4 that you say. I'm just not
> > sure that they're any good at coding, eve
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 06:14:46 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> The typical developer knows three, maybe four languages moderately
>> well, if you include SQL and regexes as languages, and might have a
>> nodding acquaintance with one or tw
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