On Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 12:19, Random832 wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 07:59, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> > The use of = also has a long history... FORTRAN (where the
> > comparison was .EQ.), BASIC (granted, K&K required assignment to
> > start with the keyword LET, so the use of =
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 19:57, Michael Torrie wrote:
> But the grammar must still be a bit complex as sometimes the LHS of the
> = is an expression, as well as the RHS.
The only place that an *arbitrary* expression (including e.g. = as
equality) can appear in the LHS is inside parentheses, otherw
Lawrence D’Oliveiro :
> On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 7:18:28 AM UTC+12, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> Oh, there's of course COBOL:
>>
>>ADD X TO Y GIVING RESULT
>
> I think COBOL has the same usage of “=” as BASIC, as assignment or
> equality comparison, depending on context.
There's the COM
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 7:18:28 AM UTC+12, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Oh, there's of course COBOL:
>
>ADD X TO Y GIVING RESULT
I think COBOL has the same usage of “=” as BASIC, as assignment or equality
comparison, depending on context.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pyth
On 08/10/2016 05:57 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 10:19 AM, Random832 wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 07:59, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>>> The use of = also has a long history... FORTRAN (where the comparison
>>> was .EQ.), BASIC (granted, K&K required assignment to start with the
On 08/10/2016 10:19 AM, Random832 wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 07:59, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> The use of = also has a long history... FORTRAN (where the comparison
>> was .EQ.), BASIC (granted, K&K required assignment to start with the
>> keyword LET, so the use of = was mainly a deli
On Aug 10, 2016 4:36 PM, "Lawrence D’Oliveiro"
wrote:
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 5:35:03 AM UTC+12, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 9:31:40 PM UTC+5:30, Anders J. Munch
wrote:
> Python’s inspiration and origin is ABC
> Whose assignment looked like
> PUT expr INTO var
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 4:01:40 AM UTC+12, Anders J. Munch wrote:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro:
>>
>>> [...] as much like C++ as possible.
>>
>> Nevertheless, Python copied the C misfeature [...]
>
> You segued a little too easily from C++ to C.
Because C++ copied that same C misfeature.
--
ht
On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 5:35:03 AM UTC+12, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 9:31:40 PM UTC+5:30, Anders J. Munch wrote:
> Python’s inspiration and origin is ABC
> Whose assignment looked like
> PUT expr INTO var
HyperTalk did that in 1987. Is that where GvR got the id
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 5:18 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rustom Mody :
>
>> On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 9:31:40 PM UTC+5:30, Anders J. Munch wrote:
>> Python’s inspiration and origin is ABC
>> Whose assignment looked like
>> PUT expr INTO var
>>
>> This has the salutary effect
>> - Of being l
Rustom Mody :
> On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 9:31:40 PM UTC+5:30, Anders J. Munch wrote:
> Python’s inspiration and origin is ABC
> Whose assignment looked like
> PUT expr INTO var
>
> This has the salutary effect
> - Of being l-to-r (the only other such case I know is gas mov)
Oh, there's of
On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 9:31:40 PM UTC+5:30, Anders J. Munch wrote:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro:
> >> [...] as much like C++ as
> >> possible.
> >
> > Nevertheless, Python copied the C misfeature [...]
>
> You segued a little too easily from C++ to C. When talking language
> evolution and
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016, at 07:59, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> The use of = also has a long history... FORTRAN (where the comparison
> was .EQ.), BASIC (granted, K&K required assignment to start with the
> keyword LET, so the use of = was mainly a delimiter between target and
> expression being a
Lawrence D’Oliveiro:
>> [...] as much like C++ as
>> possible.
>
> Nevertheless, Python copied the C misfeature [...]
You segued a little too easily from C++ to C. When talking language
evolution and inspirations, they are entirely different things.
- Anders
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/
On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 9:02:15 PM UTC+12, Anders J. Munch wrote:
> It was only later that language designers fell into the notion that it
> was crucial for a new language's success to look as much like C++ as
> possible.
Nevertheless, Python copied the C misfeature of using “=” for assignme
On 6 August 2016 at 23:33, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Aug 6, 2016 2:10 PM, "Marco Sulla via Python-list" <
> python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I was thinking manly to SQL. That furthermore is NOT a
> programming language.
>
>
> Why not? It's claimed to be Turing complete.
There's always someth
On 2016-08-06, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 5:37 AM, Bernd Nawothnig
> wrote:
>>> But SQL's NULL is a cross between C's NULL, IEEE's NaN, Cthulhu, and
>>> Emrakul.
>>
>> SQL NULL has the semantic of "unknown". So if one or both operands of
>> a comparison (or any other operation)
Marco Sulla via Python-list:
> Well, they are the most used languages.
They weren't when Python was created.
Python's terms raise/except and self were normal for the time. C++ was
the odd one out. throw/catch and this are Stroustrup's inventions, no
other language used those terms.
It was only
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 1:22 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> But using it in place of "me"? I don't think so.
>
> "The research was done by myself."
> "He punched myself in the head."
>
> I wouldn't say it is *wrong*, just inelegant and rather pretentious.
I'm sure there's good poetic reason for writ
On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 07:33 am, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 08/05/2016 07:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In English, we refer to ourselves in the first person as I, me, myself,
>> and sometimes "self", never as "this". One can say "this one has a hat",
>> for example, but it sounds weird, like somet
On 08/06/2016 08:27 PM, Clayton Kirkwood wrote:
> You can always tell the correctness by removing the other person. If it
> doesn't sound right then, then it is wrong. You don't say 'I gave to I', or
> 'I gave to me', it is 'I gave to myself'.
Yup good point, and I failed at that obviously. Good
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> By "atomic type", I mean a class which "feels" like it is a primitive,
> low-level structure rather than an object with attributes, for example:
>
> - builtins int, float, str, bytes, dict, list, tuple, set, frozenset, bool;
> - array from
On Sunday, August 7, 2016 at 1:25:43 AM UTC+5:30, Marco Sulla wrote:
> On 6 August 2016 at 02:13, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:21 AM, Marco Sulla wrote:
> >> I want to clarify that when I say "different from the other
> >> languages", I mean "different from the most used langu
On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 04:33 am, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 8/6/2016 2:30 AM, Michael Selik wrote:
>
>> When people ask me why the core classes are lowercased,
>
> Int, float, list, dict, etc were once functions that return objects of
> type 'int', 'float', 'list', 'dict', etc, before they became 'new-
[mailto:python-list-
> bounces+crk=godblessthe...@python.org] On Behalf Of Gregory Ewing
> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2016 6:17 PM
> To: python-list@python.org
> Subject: Re: Python slang
>
> Ian Kelly wrote:
> > (not grammar, since "myself" is grammatically correct)
Ian Kelly wrote:
(not grammar, since "myself" is grammatically correct)
Not sure about that. "Myself" is a reflexive pronoun,
used when the subject and object of a verb are the same.
So "I did this research by myself" is correct. But if
Bob is involved, the subject and object are different,
so
On 2016-08-06, Michael Torrie wrote:
> Sadly it has become an epidemic of late for folks to misuse the
> word, "myself." I think it comes from people not wanting to sound
> presumptuous when referring to themselves. It drives me crazy to
> hear so many people say something like, "this research
On Aug 6, 2016 3:36 PM, "Michael Torrie" wrote:
Sadly it has become an epidemic of late for folks to misuse the word,
"myself." I think it comes from people not wanting to sound
presumptuous when referring to themselves. It drives me crazy to hear
so many people say something like, "this resear
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> Sadly it has become an epidemic of late for folks to misuse the word,
> "myself." I think it comes from people not wanting to sound
> presumptuous when referring to themselves. It drives me crazy to hear
> so many people say something like,
On Aug 6, 2016 2:10 PM, "Marco Sulla via Python-list" <
python-list@python.org> wrote:
Yes, I was thinking manly to SQL. That furthermore is NOT a
programming language.
Why not? It's claimed to be Turing complete.
http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
--
https://m
On 08/05/2016 07:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In English, we refer to ourselves in the first person as I, me, myself, and
> sometimes "self", never as "this". One can say "this one has a hat", for
> example, but it sounds weird, like something the Borg would say about a
> specific Borg unit.
Sa
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 5:37 AM, Bernd Nawothnig
wrote:
>> But SQL's NULL is a cross between C's NULL, IEEE's NaN, Cthulhu, and
>> Emrakul.
>
> SQL NULL has the semantic of "unknown". So if one or both operands of
> a comparison (or any other operation) are unknown the result is
> unknown too. And
On 6 August 2016 at 03:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>>> I don't ask about `None` instead of `null` because I suppose here it's
>>> a matter of disambiguation (null, in many languages, is not equal to
>>> null).
>>
>> Really? Which languages
On 6 August 2016 at 03:14, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 08:00 am, Marco Sulla wrote:
>> I'm referring to:
>> * `except` instead of `catch`
>
> Because this isn't a game of "catch the ball". They're called "exceptions",
> not "catchions". You *try* something, and if an *exception* ha
On 6 August 2016 at 02:13, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:21 AM, Marco Sulla
> wrote:
>> I want to clarify that when I say "different from the other
>> languages", I mean "different from the most used languages", that in
>> my mind are C/C++, C#, Java, PHP and Javascript, mainly
On 6 August 2016 at 20:03, Michael Selik wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016, 10:10 AM Marco Sulla via Python-list
> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 August 2016 at 00:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> > "map" has many other meanings (most notably the action wherein you
>> > call a function on every member of a collection
On 2016-08-06, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>>> I don't ask about `None` instead of `null` because I suppose here it's
>>> a matter of disambiguation (null, in many languages, is not equal to
>>> null).
>>
>> Really? Which languages? That's not t
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Marco Sulla wrote:
>
> Nope, I was thinking that "map()" should be a method of an iterable.
> But this is another topic :)
The problem with that is that it has to become a method of _every_
iterable type, which means it becomes part of the protocol of
iterables. Mu
On 8/6/2016 2:30 AM, Michael Selik wrote:
When people ask me why the core classes are lowercased,
Int, float, list, dict, etc were once functions that return objects of
type 'int', 'float', 'list', 'dict', etc, before they became 'new-style
classes', which are not just 'classes'. The lowerc
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016, 10:10 AM Marco Sulla via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:
> On 6 August 2016 at 00:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Marco Sulla via Python-list
> > wrote:
> >> * `dict` instead of `map`
> >
> > "map" has many other meanings (most nota
On 6 August 2016 at 00:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Marco Sulla via Python-list
> wrote:
> This isn't slang; it's jargon
Right.
>> * `raise` instead of `throw`
>
> Quite a few other languages talk about raising exceptions rather than
> throwing them. Those would
On 06/08/2016 04:10, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 10:13 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:21 AM, Marco Sulla
wrote:
I want to clarify that when I say "different from the other
languages", I mean "different from the most used languages", that in
my mind are C/C++,
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> That answers the question about True and False, but not about None,
> which started the question. Why are instances capitalized here? Is it
> simply a matter of grandfathering in, with no specific decision?
Using CamelCase for the single-ins
On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 10:12 PM Chris Angelico wrote:
> That answers the question about True and False, but not about None,
> which started the question. Why are instances capitalized here? Is it
> simply a matter of grandfathering in, with no specific decision?
>
When people ask me why the core
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> It amuses me when people know a handful of languages, all clearly derived
> from each other, and think that's "most" languages. That's like somebody
> who knows Dutch, Afrikaans and German[1] being surprised that Russian,
> Cantonese, Hebrew
On 8/5/2016 6:00 PM, Marco Sulla via Python-list wrote:
I have a simple curiosity: why Python has much keywords, and some
builtin types and methods, that are different from the other
languages? What is the rationale?
I'm referring to:
* `except` instead of `catch`
Python partly takes its cue f
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 10:13 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:21 AM, Marco Sulla
> wrote:
>> I want to clarify that when I say "different from the other
>> languages", I mean "different from the most used languages", that in
>> my mind are C/C++, C#, Java, PHP and Javascript, main
On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 8:16:36 AM UTC+5:30, Random832 wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016, at 20:14, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> > .push() tends to make this one think "stack" and not general purpose
> > list.
>
> It's a bit unusual to have .pop() without a matching .push().
True…
OTOH I tend
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 12:46 PM, Random832 wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2016, at 20:14, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> .push() tends to make this one think "stack" and not general purpose
>> list.
>
> It's a bit unusual to have .pop() without a matching .push().
balloon.inflate()
balloon.pop()
Chr
On Fri, Aug 5, 2016, at 20:14, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> .push() tends to make this one think "stack" and not general purpose
> list.
It's a bit unusual to have .pop() without a matching .push().
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
>>> * `True`, `False` and None instead of `true`, `false` and `none` (they
>>> seems classes)
>>
>> This one, I've no idea about. Why have "bool" as the type, and "True"
>> and "False" as the instances? I think the built-in types have their
>
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 08:31 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Marco Sulla via Python-list
> wrote:
[...]
>> I'm referring to:
>> * `except` instead of `catch`
>
> Not sure. Python does seem to be roughly unique in this.
Delphi does uses the same terminology. Standard Pasc
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
>> I don't ask about `None` instead of `null` because I suppose here it's
>> a matter of disambiguation (null, in many languages, is not equal to
>> null).
>
> Really? Which languages? That's not true in Pascal, C, Ruby or Javascript.
>
SQL
On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 08:00 am, Marco Sulla wrote:
> I have a simple curiosity: why Python has much keywords, and some
> builtin types and methods, that are different from the other
> languages? What is the rationale?
You should ask those other languages. Which languages do you have in mind?
> I'
On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 9:21 AM, Marco Sulla
wrote:
> I want to clarify that when I say "different from the other
> languages", I mean "different from the most used languages", that in
> my mind are C/C++, C#, Java, PHP and Javascript, mainly.
>
Ah, well, that's because those are all one family of
"slang" implies an
unofficial form of use. "Python slang" might include the myriad
references to "spam" throughout the code and docs, and other Monty
Pythonisms. But that aside, these are great questions to ask. As some
people put it: "Why is it so?".
&g
I have a simple curiosity: why Python has much keywords, and some
builtin types and methods, that are different from the other
languages? What is the rationale?
I'm referring to:
* `except` instead of `catch`
* `raise` instead of `throw`
* `self` instead of `this` (I know, it's not enforced, but i
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