ket, dict, whatever?
A sort of generic solution might be to follow str's behavior
with respect to '__str__', extending it to fall back to repr()
whatever goes wrong.
def xtr(a):
try:
return str(a)
except:
return repr(a)
...
hey are not better known'
If English isn't your 1st language, you deserve a lot of credit for your
mastery of it, but you need a better dictionary.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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27;t imagine how you could be
convinced of this. Changes to Python in 3.0 won't satisfy
the continuing "need" for change thereafter.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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ation is a lot more fun in some ways,
but I think if you were to apply a sort of conspiracy analysis
to the situation - "who benefits from language change" - this
would be a couple items down on the list of motivations.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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ome of the maintenance issues, since at least you can upgrade on
your own schedule, but of course it has its costs too. Anyone who
might be thinking about using Python for an application should
seriously think about this.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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tify the backup
error unit, if the command line parameter option isn't available
for some reason.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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ed pipe. When you read from one,
you get end of file, i.e., a normal return with 0 bytes.
When you test it, make sure to try a configuration with more
than one child process. Since the parent holds the write end
of the pipe, subsequently forked child processes could easily
inherit it, and they&#x
t does support "asynchronous, blocking" with
aio -- as VAX/VMS did (and presumably still does), with event
flags.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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rony because there's no way to know when the data is
ready, and 3rd rate I/O because afterwards you still have the
copying to do. I don't see even this much in asyncore.py, but
I just gave it a glance.
thanks,
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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uld cheerfully accept this,
given the meager and clumsy support for static typing in languages
like C++, but today, it makes me appreciate Haskell's potential
for complex projects.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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oard interrupt?
You might try posix.setsid(), from the child fork.
The object is to get the child fork out of the foreground
process group for the Berkeley terminal driver. This defines
who gets signals, when they originate in terminal control keys.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://ma
someone who learns Python concepts
in terms of explanations like `boxes' or `pointers' or whatnot
is at some disadvantage while that lasts, like translating a
foreign language to your own instead of attaching meaning
directly.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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rameter binding should
be implemented, so you could say
dotted = string.join('.')
...
v = dotted(['comp', 'lang', 'python'])
As you probably well know, that isn't my idea, it's a common
functional programming language idiom.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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an you
retrieve other fields that way? Does the one you're looking for appear
in the data if you get the whole header, for example with 'RFC822.HEADER'?
It certainly does in my Python IMAP client, and this would have at least
helped you refine your question.
Donn Cave
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
he way we render
objects as text strings, a priori. If there is any such thing, it
depends completely on the context. To invite the author of an object
to devise a text rendition that will be humane (friendly, readable
or whatever) is to waste his or her time. There are better ways to
conceive of this str/repr distinction, and they've been discussed
to death. python.org documentation will probably never be fixed.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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for it, other than the obvious -
either always flush, or wrap an explicit close in its own exception
handler.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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lems with the procedural/imperative programming
model, and we can establish that it was already hated and on its
way out by the late 90's? How about OOP? Already on its way out
by the time Python 1.0 hit the streets?
The thing that allows us to be so smug about the follies of the
past, is that we can pretend everyone knew better.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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uch else in this thread. Certainly up to you, but you wouldn't be
in a very good position to be drawing weird inferences as above.
Or you see original conception of the program as so inherently
suspect, that random errors introduced during implementation can
reasonably be seen as helpfu
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave wrote:
> > Someday we will look at "variables" like we look at goto.
> >
> How very functional. I believe some people naturally think in terms of
> state tran
#x27;s reprimands about your code errors,
or nagging about warnings? Maybe the language implementation's
job has as much to do with working around our feelings as anything
else.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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onse to, and I don't know what
that was supposed to mean, but Haskell's type system addresses
just what we all would expect, the structural consistency of the
program in terms of data types. It doesn't generally prevent data
errors or correct your misunderstanding of an algorithm or in
general avoid every kind of error. What it does, though, it does
rather well.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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ar or two ago. I don't see
how it could ever get anywhere without offending a lot of the
Python crowd, however well designed, so I can see why someone
might try to sneak it past by pretending it has nothing to do
with types. But he didn't -- look at the examples, I think he
rather overst
points
of articulation and more things that aren't obvious to the person
making the changes. If that's flexibility, you can have it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
n reasonably argue that steel toed boots
prevent injuries to the toe, without having to prove that
they withstand a welding torch, a nuclear blast, etc.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Erik Max Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave wrote:
>
> > Not that it is of no historical interest to review all these
> > reasonable arguments, but allow me to restore the context quote
> > from my follow-up:
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Erik Max Francis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave wrote:
>
> > Anyone who finds this surprising, might enjoy reading this
> > article from the time several years ago when the feature
> > was being considered. When you
ed towards the end. Yes, it's the Laura Creighton
article again:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/2de5e1c8384c0360
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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ometimes to the
point of what seems like willful blindness to the deficiencies of
a favorite programming language.
If we have a sound language proposal backed by a compelling need,
fine, but don't add a great burden to the language for the sake of
great plans for Nepalese grade school programmers.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2007-04-26, Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> One possible way to work around this is to get the raw command line
> >> and do the shell expansions ourselves from wi
dy RMS$ function or two so it gets done in
a consistent way. This allows the command line interface to
interact with the user in a little more transparent way, since
the input seen by the program is congruent with what the user
typed in. E.g., "rename *.jpeg *.jpg" is trivial on VMS,
im
ference counting allocation scheme
will be useful. In particular, you need a fairly good grasp of
what a "reference" is.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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t a lot of work to read data with operating system functions
that are compatible with select - os.read(), socket.recv() - and
break it up into lines on your own, and this completely and efficiently
resolves the problem.
I haven't looked at your code.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Hendrik van Rooyen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Donn Cave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, yes - consider for example the "tm" tuple returned
> > from time.localtime() - it
ngly that
> this shouldn't be understood in terms of type similarities.
Well, yes - consider for example the "tm" tuple returned
from time.localtime() - it's all integers, but heterogeneous
as could be - tm[0] is Year, tm[1] is Month, etc., and it
turns out that not on
index method. This suggests a missing
> method, does it not? Who has not done this?
> Name yourself!
I am pleased to find myself in this company. My name is
Donn Cave. I have been using Python since version 1.1,
though frankly I haven't used it a lot in recent years.
I have a confess
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Gabriel Genellina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> En Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:38:59 -0300, Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> escribió:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "Gabriel Genellina"
fer to use a
> different thread for reading its output.
Right - `I used threads to solve my problem, and now I have two
problems.' It can work for some variations on this problem, but
not the majority of them.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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gh the loopback
interface anyway, invariably regardless of host network implementation?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Quoth Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
| Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| > What this proves is that you can implement
| > an argument list at run time, but it by no means changes the
| > nature of the argument list as a sequence.
|
| Right, it's treated a
d that restart loop, actually reading
one line at a time and appending to the line list. I'm not
sure that's totally bulletproof - probably will work, but
if you need a sure thing, I would go to UNIX I/O (posix.read),
in a loop, and then split the concatenated results by newline.
Or, of course if you could shut down the signals...
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Unpredictable? How do you manage to write functions in this case?
> > Are all your formal parameter lists like (*a), with logic to d
gt; i'm struggling to figure this out. can you recommend any possible
> methods of preventing this? for instance, could acquiring a thread
> lock before calling popen solve the problem?
No.
Did you look at the text of the post you responded to here?
What do you think about that advice? Do
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Paul Rubin <http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > If t is a valid argument tuple for function f, then can t[1:]
> > also be a valid argument tuple for function f?
> >
> > Fo
gument handling, no.
We know that without having to know anything about t, and not
much about f. This is characteristic of tuple applications.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
les do not fulfill certain
> critereia causing so_somehting() to return before the entire file is
> processed.
Most programming environments don't have this problem, though.
If you like, your program can undo what Python does:
signal.signal(signal.SIGPIPE, signal.SIG_DFL)
for file
't have signal handlers,
sounds like a horrible idea to me. If your code has a signal
handler for SIGCHLD, try to get rid of that - the handler itself
is causing your problem.
OO (Object Oriented?) doesn't have anything to do with the problem,
that I can think of.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
str() to force data to string type (that's
what I mean by conversion.) If the object can't sensibly be
converted to string type, then normally __str__ is omitted, and
defaults to __repr__.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
James Stroud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
> Paddy wrote:'
> > Frank,
> > IPython is great, but it is not a replacement for a shell like bash. If
> > you have a Linux system then you still need to know the rudiments of
> > bash
>
> Or better yet, csh. ;)
Careful
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> |> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> |> "Gabriel Genellina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wro
appropriate one.
>
> Use os.open with the O_EXCL flag; will fail if the other process has the
> file still open (and will fail if another process is reading the file, too,
> not just if someone is writing).
O_EXCL fails if the file exists at all - whether closed or open.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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l
throw the select off. From memory - better check, since
it has been a while since I wrote anything real like this
(or for that matter much of anything in Python) --
import select
def ProcessOutput(instream, outstream):
fdr = [instream.fileno()]
(r, w, e) = select.select(fdr, [], [], 0.0)
cpapen/newsletters %
> * LIST (\HasNoChildren) "/" "user/cpapen/organisatie &- structuur"
> * LIST (\HasNoChildren) "/" "user/cpapen/sociale wetenschappen"
{5}\r\nhello\r\n is an IMAP "literal". It's unlucky that
Cyrus uses this for
hat "if" and
"while" are asking for "yes" and "no", instead of "true"
and "false", and ask yourself if we have the philosophical
problems with "yes" that we do with "true".
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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"if" -- well, we
just have to use what we have.
If there were better words to use with the notion of
"something-ness", I think we would see booleans as a silly
thing of little use to Python programmers. If you can see
"if" and "while" as constructs that respond to something-ness,
you will appreciate idiomatic Python better, because that
arguably is just what it's about.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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hat "if s == True", where s is not a boolean
object, might represent a gain in readability. That really
redefines readability.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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there will be no values that include / in a context like
really looks like that X.500 style distinguished name.
So if you parse out that string in those terms, and require
each of those key = value pairs to have reasonable values -
key has no embedded spaces, value has non-zero length - then
you should be OK. Re-join any invalid component to its
predecessor's value.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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; rather, it just opens a file in
> the file system and uses fseek to move around.
Wow, you're sure a wizard! Most people would need to look before
making statements like that.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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(and os.WIFEXITED.) Not only does this do more precisely the
right thing, it will work on any platform that supports a
POSIX wait -- which doesn't require that exit == status << 8,
only that WEXITSTATUS be able to return that value.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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shell commands. Not that it strictly couldn't be done,
but on the whole I haven't noticed that anyone cares.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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e possible ... but then the documentation for __str__
right below it says "differs from __repr() in that it does not
have to be a valid Python expression". There's plenty of evidence
in the standard libraries that people understand these two functions,
but they certainly have arrived at that understanding from some
other route than reading the documentation.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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e class, and which should it keep local? What criteria might it
> use for making such a choice? How could you be sure that the decisions
> it made would be useful or appropriate?
Yes indeed. This must be OO fever in its most rarified form -
the notion that even mechanical conversion to
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>...
> > > > I believe your problem is that, by the time you open the
> > > > pipe for read, it has already been closed by its writer.
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alex Martelli) wrote:
> Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Rochester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I just found out that the gene
ackground process; did it occur to you to try that
in Python?
> Anyway, I think every scripting language has its pros and cons. Bash is
> probably more flexible in dealing with fifos and multiway pipes (through
> the magic menchanism of process substitution).
Multiway pipes?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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tmpfile2').read()
>
> But that's kinda awkward isn't it? :-) The Bash way of doing this
> would be (suppose A is the stdout of prog2, B is the stdout of
> prog3):
>
> diff <(prog2) <(prog3) > C
>
> What is the best way of doing this i
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Antoon Pardon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2006-07-19, Donn Cave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
> > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/2de5e1c8384c0360
> >
> > It's lengthy but very readable, and
x27;]
Oh, excellent - the string module is dead, long live
the string module! I can replace string.join with
str.join, and never have to defile my code with that
' '.join(x) abomination.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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oogle.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/2de5e1c8384c0360
It's lengthy but very readable, and for me it has that quality of
exposition where you feel at first reading as though you had
already known all that -- even if you really hadn't.
But I don't know where she is today, or the P
Yes, it's clearly more direct to catch IndexError, than to
try to anticipate it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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matters
like this should follow the underlying point of the code.
In this case, the body of the test refers implicitly to
the length of the list, since .pop() -> (list[a], list[:a])
where a is (len(list) - 1) It's therefore quite appropriate
for the test to be length.
Donn Cave, [
ou've immediately created it too.
> >
> > Sybren
>
> Thanks. Is that what atomic basically means?
Yes, and also "race condition". That's why Jim Segrave's
example code uses O_EXCL with open(2).
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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6915448
> >>> id(a[1])
> 46912496915448
> >>>
You're right - he actually didn't set the name b to reference a
slice of a. But if he had - slicing a list does return a new list.
Indexing, as in the example, returns the item object. Or, binds a
reference to
ocol traffic,
and I don't remember needing to do any such thing there.
I'd have to look harder at the details, but as I recall it,
like any sane application the protocol is defined in terms of
data, so you know if you have a complete command by looking at
what you have.
Donn Cave,
ing like
find . -name \*.mp3 -exec $HOME/bin/cvt .mp4 {} \;
where cvt would be something like
#!/bin/sh
case $1:$2 in
.mp4:*.mp3) mp3_to_mp4 $2 ${2%.mp3}.mp4 ;;
...
You'd have to think about it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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ents fcntl.flock() with fcntl(2),
I guess on the theory that you can't have enough brain
damage. The worst case would be if Python's configure
missed a bona fide flock(2), which is unlikely but may
be worth checking if you use flock(2) for a reason.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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exc_traceback = None), the applications
used a terminal graphics library, like curses, and I often
depended on finalization (__del__) to run the "close" rendering
for a graphic element. Worked fine until an exception, so I
add this precaution to every I/O flush.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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than a pipe, but you can probably
get something going with openpty or forkpty from
the os/posix module, or there may still be 3rd
party packages for this.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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gs, or open the output file some other way that
creates a file object and use its fileno() function. Flush
stdout before each dup2().
To revert back to the original stdout, you will want a
copy of that stream, which you can get with the os.dup()
function, prior to redirection. All the left over file
e places
where it may be better to write
if not expr:
than
if expr is None:
or worse yet,
if expr == False:
That's what I think, anyway.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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Quoth "David Isaac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
| Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|> I suppose it isn't supported by the mailbox module basically because
|> it isn't all that commonly encountered. It may be more common on mail
|> servers, but there it's email net pro
servers, but there it's email net protocol data, POP or IMAP. If
Mahogany has been using this format for `local' folders (i.e., via
filesystem), I think that may have been kind of poor judgement on the
part of its developers.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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ducing strings.
Anyway, it seems unlikely he would get that INVARG error for this
reason. That's an error from the host operating system, not the
interpreter, and it mostly likely refers to the file descriptor.
Since it works for me, I guess his problem is basically this:
|> (python 2.4
; value, before you can assume that
you got the data you asked for. I would suggest that you print
these values out somewhere, it will put you in a position where
you can probably answer your question better than we can.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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y go both ways. I was a little
surprised by this, and have not been able to scare up any
explicit documentation, but the only example program I
could find for two-way UNIX domain datagram IPC, uses two
sockets, not one -
http://docs.hp.com/en/B2355-90136/ch07s06.html
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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is not connected')
>
> This is despite the client waiting on a socket.recv() statement. Is
> the client really not connected, or is the server unaware of the
> connection? And how do I fix this?
You can either connect() as well as bind(), or use
sendto(data, file)
Do
t;> resulting in the desired result or a typecasting error otherwise.
> >> Furthermore, it could do it more efficiently than a developer having to
> >> put conditional code at the beginning of traditionally typecasting
> >> functions.
I know awk works a bit like that, maybe Perl? but it's
surely way out of place in Python.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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27;t see how this is possible if os.path.exists(pth) returns
> True, why is it os.execve() has problems finding it.
I haven't used chroot enough to know all the pitfalls, but
here's one guess: suppose the CGI script file `pth' might
actually be a script, with a `#!' top line t
of the documentation about these
functions, too. They are not just like popen.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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interest in computer programming is likely to know what
microcode means, that there are emulators, virtual machines, etc. You
might find the UCSD Pascal system interesting, to harken back to the
early days of my experience with computers, a fascinating twist on the
interpreted/compiled story. Intere
m that? Look for a recent thread here about
porting Python to LynxOS.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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/j-native.html?loc=j
- which seems like it might be of some interest here.
My impression from reading this is that Java actually
can be compiled to native code, though in 2002 this
was relatively new.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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e that starts with "No of course not",
even omits a point that everyone understands, you can in
fact expect a .py file will work independent of machine
architecture - like any interpreted language. We all know
what native code compilation buys you and what it doesn't.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ingers and
hope that I have the required Python interpreter version, slip in a
25Mb Python interpreter install and hope I won't notice, or come clean
and tell me that your program needs an interpreter and I should check to
see that I have it.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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exity. I guess this is
why for some people, "scripting language" just means "interpreted and
suited to writing trivial programs." It's hard to believe they're
thinking very hard about what they're saying, but so what's new?
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ings (which is what '-1' would have been with the
classic UNIX shell.)
So I will leave it to someone else to wrestle with the Microsoft
problem, but I just wanted to point out that it isn't something you
could expect to work anywhere else.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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ial Python users. The most obvious to me is that
your Python program essential includes its interpreter - can't go anywhere
without it, and any change to the interpreter is a change to the program.
There are various strategies to address this, but pretending that Python
isn't interpreted is not one of them.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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",
but not "Python is a scripting language!", since its place in the taxonomy
of languages would be somewhere else.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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guous, but my guess is your
process just isn't done when you think it is. It's flushing
data to disk or something like that. Or it could be something
else. Why don't you write a sample program that works like
this, and demonstrates the problem, and then we'll know.
Donn Cav
ommand. If it's the last thing the shell
has to do, then it can be exec'ed without a fork, which
leaves the gdb image running in the immediate child process.
Some shells do that automatically. In any case, a Bourne
shell "exec" statement will do it, like "exec /.../gdb
what would
be appropriate - maybe it was put inside WITH_THREAD in error, in the
first place, for all I know.
If you think you probably should be getting threads, then look at
pyconfig.h to verify this.
Donn Cave, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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