DFS writes:
> The lists I actually use are:
>
> for j in range(len(nms)):
> cSQL = "INSERT INTO ADDRESSES VALUES (?,?,?,?,?)"
> vals = nms[j],street[j],city[j],state[j],zipcd[j]
>
>
> The enumerated version would be:
>
> ziplists = zip(nms,street,city,state,zipcd)
> for nm,street,city,st
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 9:28 PM, DFS wrote:
> But I think there are some pylint bugs here:
> -
>
> standard import "import pyodbc, sqlite3" comes before "import pyodbc,
> sqlite3" (wrong-import-order)
>
> * complains that the
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 2:40 PM, DFS wrote:
>>> It says "Used builtin function 'filter'. Using a list comprehension can
>>> be
>>> clearer. (bad-builtin)"
>>
>>
>> Kill that message and keep using filter.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, 'bad-builtin' caught 2 truly bad uses of built-ins (zip() and
> id()),
On 5/7/2016 11:51 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:28 PM, DFS wrote:
Invalid constant name "cityzip" (invalid-name)
Invalid constant name "state" (invalid-name)
Invalid constant name "miles" (invalid-name)
Invalid constant name "store" (invalid-name)
Invalid variable name "rs"
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 2:10 PM, DFS wrote:
>>> +-++
>>> |trailing-whitespace |59 | heh!
>>> +-++
>>> |multiple-statements |23 | do this to save lines.
>>> W
On 5/7/2016 11:25 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sun, 8 May 2016 02:51 am, DFS wrote:
This more-anal-than-me program generated almost 2 warnings for every
line of code in my program. w t hey?
DFS comments
+-++
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:38 PM, DFS wrote:
>> This code is reeking with bad habits to be broken. Assigning a throwaway
>> variable to walk the index is unnecessary when Python can do it for you
>> behind the scenes.
>
>
> Don't you think python also allocates a throwaway variable for use with zip
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 08:28 PM, DFS wrote:
> >> +-++
> >> |superfluous-parens |3 | I like to surround 'or'
> >> statments with parens
> >
> > I would need examples to comment
>
>
> if ("Please choose a
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:28 PM, DFS wrote:
> Invalid constant name "cityzip" (invalid-name)
> Invalid constant name "state" (invalid-name)
> Invalid constant name "miles" (invalid-name)
> Invalid constant name "store" (invalid-name)
> Invalid variable name "rs" (invalid-name)
... huh?? The first
Great help. My Python program is a rewrite of a Perl program I wrote. An
interesting exercise.
The reason being it is targeted for a Raspberry Pi and for the Pi Python
has the most support.
*Jim Dodgen*
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 6:38 PM, Ben Finney
wrote:
> Chris Angelico writes:
>
> >
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 08:04 PM, DFS wrote:
> The lists I actually use are:
>
> for j in range(len(nms)):
> cSQL = "INSERT INTO ADDRESSES VALUES (?,?,?,?,?)"
> vals = nms[j],street[j],city[j],state[j],zipcd[j]
>
>
> The enumerated version would be:
>
> ziplists = zip(nms,street,cit
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 22:43, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > If not for the quotas, a citizen of some other country would have an
> > equal chance to get a green card as a citizen of India or China.
>
> If you have a big hat with 5,000,000 tickets marked "Indian", and 500
> tickets marked "Finish",
On 5/7/2016 2:52 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
On 5/7/2016 9:51 AM, DFS wrote:
Has anyone ever in history gotten 10/10 from pylint for a non-trivial
program?
I routinely get 10/10 for my code. While pylint isn't perfect and
idiosyncratic at times, it's a useful tool to help break bad programmi
On 5/7/2016 3:40 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 5/7/2016 12:51 PM, DFS wrote:
This more-anal-than-me program generated almost 2 warnings for every
line of code in my program. w t hey?
If you don't like it, why do you use it?
I've never used it before last night. I was shocked at what it spewed
On Sun, 8 May 2016 02:51 am, DFS wrote:
> This more-anal-than-me program generated almost 2 warnings for every
> line of code in my program. w t hey?
>
>
>DFS comments
> +-++ ---
> |messa
On 5/7/2016 6:40 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 5/7/2016 3:17 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
For my purposes, I'm using the list comprehension over filter to keep
pylint happy.
How sad. The pylint developers arrogantly take it on themselves to
revise Python, against the wishes of Guido and the oth
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 8 May 2016 04:40 am, Random832 wrote:
>
>> On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 11:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> > Indian and Chinese H1B holders are getting screwed, which is of course
>>> > the whole objective of the country limits.
>>>
>>> T
On 5/7/2016 10:14 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 06:16 PM, DFS wrote:
Why is it better to zip() them up and use:
for item1, item2, item3 in zip(list1, list2, list3):
do something with the items
than
for j in range(len(list1)):
do something with list1[j], list2[j]
On Sun, 8 May 2016 07:35 am, Stephen Hansen wrote:
> I'd read over PEP8 (the document, not the tool) and
> apply style guide recommendations thoughtfully, not mechanically.
Guido is not a fan of automated PEP8 checkers. He agrees entirely with your
comment: apply style guides thoughtfully, not m
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 12:15 PM, DFS wrote:
> On 5/7/2016 9:36 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>> street = [s.split(',')[0] for s in addr]
>>> city = [c.split(',')[1].strip() for c in addr]
>>> state = [s[-8:][:2] for s in addr]
>>> zipcd = [z[
On Sun, 8 May 2016 04:40 am, Random832 wrote:
> On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 11:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> > Indian and Chinese H1B holders are getting screwed, which is of course
>> > the whole objective of the country limits.
>>
>> The *whole* objective? You don't think that *part* of the objecti
On 2016-05-08 03:14, Stephen Hansen wrote:
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 06:16 PM, DFS wrote:
Why is it better to zip() them up and use:
for item1, item2, item3 in zip(list1, list2, list3):
do something with the items
than
for j in range(len(list1)):
do something with list1[j], list2[j],
On 5/7/2016 9:36 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, DFS wrote:
On 5/7/2016 1:01 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
The suggestion from a human would be to use zip(), or possibly to
change your data structures.
Happens like this:
address data is scraped from a website:
names
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 06:16 PM, DFS wrote:
> Why is it better to zip() them up and use:
>
> for item1, item2, item3 in zip(list1, list2, list3):
> do something with the items
>
> than
>
> for j in range(len(list1)):
> do something with list1[j], list2[j], list3[j], etc.
Although Ch
On 5/7/2016 3:52 PM, Ray Cote wrote:
Biggest issue I have with pyLint is that it complains when function
parameters are indented twice vs. once. pyFlakes likes the twice.
Example:
def function_name(
parm_1,
long_parm_name,
….
end_of_long_list_of params)
parm_1
On 5/7/2016 3:17 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
For my purposes, I'm using the list comprehension over filter to keep
pylint happy.
How sad. The pylint developers arrogantly take it on themselves to
revise Python, against the wishes of Guido and the other core
developers, and you and feel ob
Chris Angelico writes:
> On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Jim Dodgen wrote:
> > The empty token is needed but useless, it is arg[0] most people just
> > repeat the program name
>
> Far from useless. It's how a process learns its own name, and yes,
> repeating the image name is the most common way
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 11:16 AM, DFS wrote:
> On 5/7/2016 1:01 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> The suggestion from a human would be to use zip(), or possibly to
>> change your data structures.
>
>
> Happens like this:
>
> address data is scraped from a website:
>
> names = tree.xpath()
> addr = tree
Jim Dodgen writes:
> I'm have problems redirecting stdout and stderr to /dev/null in a
> program that does a fork and exec.
You may be interested in the ‘python-daemon’ library
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-daemon/>. It takes care of all
the fiddly bits to turn your program into a well-beh
On 5/7/2016 1:01 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 2:51 AM, DFS wrote:
[1]
pylint says "Consider using enumerate instead of iterating with range and
len"
the offending code is:
for j in range(len(list1)):
do something with list1[j], list2[j], list3[j], etc.
enumeration would
Thanks Chris
I now have things working using a version 3.4.3 it finds subprocess.DEVNULL
just fine
*Jim Dodgen*
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Jim Dodgen wrote:
> > The empty token is needed but useless, it is arg[0] most people j
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Jim Dodgen wrote:
> The empty token is needed but useless, it is arg[0] most people just repeat
> the program name
Far from useless. It's how a process learns its own name, and yes,
repeating the image name is the most common way to provide that.
> One other obser
*Thanks for the help*
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Martin A. Brown
wrote:
>
> Hello there,
>
> >I'm new to python but well versed on other languages such as C and
> >Perl
> >
> >I'm have problems redirecting stdout and stderr to /dev/null in a
> >program that does a fork and exec. T found
On 5/7/2016 1:31 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Christopher Reimer :
Never know when an asshat hiring manager would reject my resume out of
hand because my code fell short with pylint.
Remember that it's not only the company checking you out but also you
checking the company out.
Would you want to
2016-05-07 21:17 GMT+02:00 Christopher Reimer :
> On 5/5/2016 6:37 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016, at 06:26 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
>>
>>> Which is one is correct (Pythonic)? Or does it matter?
>>>
>> First, pylint is somewhat opinionated, and its default options shouldn'
On 5/7/2016 2:22 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Christopher Reimer
wrote:
Since the code I'm working on is resume fodder (i.e., "Yes, I code in
Python! Check out my chess engine code on GitHub!"), I want it to be
as Pythonic and PEP8-compliant as possible. That inclu
Hello eryk sun,
thank you very much for your help and detailed answers.
With the provided links and useful information I should be
able to get a better understanding how ctypes works internally.
Thank you
Hubert
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 4:42 AM, Michael Selik wrote:
>
>> +-++
>> |line-too-long|5 | meh
>>
>
> Yeah, I think 80 characters can be somewhat tight. Still, 5 long lines in
> 200ish lines of code? Sounds like you might be doing too much in tho
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 7:35 AM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
> On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
>> On 5/5/2016 6:37 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
>> > On Thu, May 5, 2016, at 06:26 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
>> >> Which is one is correct (Pythonic)? Or does it matter?
>> > First
Il giorno sabato 7 maggio 2016 21:04:47 UTC+2, Michael Selik ha scritto:
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 3:01 AM wrote:
>
> > The PDF is generated through an external API. Since currently is generated
> > on demand, this is handled synchronously via an HTTP request/response.
>
>
> Are you sending the
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
> On 5/5/2016 6:37 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
> > On Thu, May 5, 2016, at 06:26 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
> >> Which is one is correct (Pythonic)? Or does it matter?
> > First, pylint is somewhat opinionated, and its default options sho
On 05/07/2016 05:22 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Christopher Reimer
wrote:
pylint. Never know when an asshat hiring manager would reject my resume out
of hand because my code fell short with pylint.
I see that as a good motivation to make sure your code was go
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 5:17 AM, Christopher Reimer
wrote:
> On 5/5/2016 6:37 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, May 5, 2016, at 06:26 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
>>>
>>> Which is one is correct (Pythonic)? Or does it matter?
>>
>> First, pylint is somewhat opinionated, and its default optio
On 5/3/2016 10:13 PM, DFS wrote:
Wanted to start a new thread, rather than use the 'motivated' thread.
Can you play your game at the console?
Nope. Only displays the board on the console. An early version had the
forward movement for pawns implemented.
The way I think about a chess engine i
Christopher Reimer :
> Never know when an asshat hiring manager would reject my resume out of
> hand because my code fell short with pylint.
Remember that it's not only the company checking you out but also you
checking the company out.
Would you want to work for an asshat hiring manager?
Of cou
On 5/7/2016 12:52 PM, Ray Cote wrote:
I’m impressed with 10/10.
My approach is to ensure flake8 (a combination of pyflakes and pep8
checking) does not report any warnings and then run pyLint as a final
check.
I just installed pyflakes and ran it against my 10/10 files. It's not
complaining ab
On 5/5/2016 6:37 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
On Thu, May 5, 2016, at 06:26 PM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
Which is one is correct (Pythonic)? Or does it matter?
First, pylint is somewhat opinionated, and its default options shouldn't
be taken as gospel. There's no correct: filter is fine.
Since
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Christopher Reimer <
christopher_rei...@icloud.com> wrote:
> On 5/7/2016 9:51 AM, DFS wrote:
>
>> Has anyone ever in history gotten 10/10 from pylint for a non-trivial
>> program?
>>
>
> I routinely get 10/10 for my code. While pylint isn't perfect and
> idiosyncrat
On 5/7/2016 12:23 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
You can do better. You should strive for 10/10 whenever possible,
figure out why you fall short and ask for help on the parts that don't
make sense.
I think this is giving far too much weigh
On 5/7/2016 12:51 PM, DFS wrote:
This more-anal-than-me program generated almost 2 warnings for every
line of code in my program. w t hey?
If you don't like it, why do you use it?
I suppose the answer is that it did find a few things to check. You
might be happier with pychecker, which is m
On 5/5/2016 7:57 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
On Thu, May 5, 2016, at 07:46 PM, Dan Sommers wrote:
On Thu, 05 May 2016 18:37:11 -0700, Stephen Hansen wrote:
''.join(x for x in string if x.isupper())
The difference is, both filter and your list comprehension *build a
list* which is not needed
> There's probably some Angular JS code involved with this. Look at the
> source (not the page source, the source code in the developer's
> tools).
Is it possible to get that code using python?
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Christopher Reimer wrote:
> You can do better. You should strive for 10/10 whenever possible,
> figure out why you fall short and ask for help on the parts that don't
> make sense.
I think this is giving far too much weight to pylint's opinion on what
is "good"
Hello there,
>I'm new to python but well versed on other languages such as C and
>Perl
>
>I'm have problems redirecting stdout and stderr to /dev/null in a
>program that does a fork and exec. T found this method googling
>around and it is quite elegant compared to to the Perl version.
>
>So to
Pylint is very opinionated. Feel free to adjust its configuration to
suit your opinions of style.
In particular, several of these might be related to PEP8 style issues.
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 09:51 AM, DFS wrote:
>DFS comments
> +--
On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 3:01 AM wrote:
> The PDF is generated through an external API. Since currently is generated
> on demand, this is handled synchronously via an HTTP request/response.
Are you sending the request or are you receiving the request?
If you are sending, you can just use threads
On 5/7/2016 9:51 AM, DFS wrote:
Has anyone ever in history gotten 10/10 from pylint for a non-trivial
program?
I routinely get 10/10 for my code. While pylint isn't perfect and
idiosyncratic at times, it's a useful tool to help break bad programming
habits. Since I came from a Java background
On Sat, 7 May 2016 12:51:00 -0400, DFS wrote:
> This more-anal-than-me program generated almost 2 warnings for every
> line of code in my program. w t hey?
Thank you for putting a sample of pylint output in front of my eyes;
you inspired me to install pylint and try it out. If it teaches me ev
I'm new to python but well versed on other languages such as C and Perl
I'm have problems redirecting stdout and stderr to /dev/null in a
program that does a fork and exec. T found this method googling around and
it is
quite elegant compared to to the Perl version.
So to isolate things I made a m
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:56 PM DFS wrote:
> |mixed-indentation|186 | I always use tab
>
Don't mix tabs and spaces. I suggest selecting all lines and using your
editor to convert spaces to tabs. Usually there's a feature to "tabify".
> +-++
>
On Sat, May 7, 2016, at 11:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > Indian and Chinese H1B holders are getting screwed, which is of course
> > the whole objective of the country limits.
>
> The *whole* objective? You don't think that *part* of the objective may
> be
> to ensure that citizens of countries ot
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 2:51 AM, DFS wrote:
> [1]
> pylint says "Consider using enumerate instead of iterating with range and
> len"
>
> the offending code is:
> for j in range(len(list1)):
> do something with list1[j], list2[j], list3[j], etc.
>
> enumeration would be:
> for j,item in enumerate(
Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:45 PM, Grant Edwards
> wrote:
>>> JavaScript is terrible. Really, really bad. And because of that, it
>>> has the potential to sweep the world.
>>
>> If your reasoning is correct, it'll never be able to overtake PHP.
>>
>> I've never written anyth
This more-anal-than-me program generated almost 2 warnings for every
line of code in my program. w t hey?
DFS comments
+-++ ---
|message id |occurrences |
+==
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 10:27 AM, wrote:
> Hi,
>
> on page:
> https://hrti.hrt.hr/#/video/show/2203605/trebizat-prica-o-jednoj-vodi-i-jednom-narodu-dokumentarni-film
>
> there is a picture and in the middle of the picture there is a text
> "Prijavite se za gledanje!"
>
> If I open the page in fir
Chris Angelico :
> But immigration laws are a pretty terrible mess the world over, from
> what I've seen, and I wish countries could drop the whole "but we have
> to protect ourselves from foreigners" thing. At some point, those
> "foreigners" become "citizens", and just as worthy of your protecti
Steven D'Aprano :
> On Sat, 7 May 2016 06:50 pm, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Indian and Chinese H1B holders are getting screwed, which is of course
>> the whole objective of the country limits.
>
> The *whole* objective? You don't think that *part* of the objective
> may be to ensure that citizens of
On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> Obviously this system is a conspiracy to benefit citizens of Andorra
> (population 85 thousand), Marshall Islands (pop. 70 thousand),
> Liechtenstein (pop. 37 thousand), Nauru (pop. 9 thousand) and the Vatican
> City (pop. 842).
The Vatic
On Sat, 7 May 2016 06:50 pm, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> The United States has an "egalitarian" quota system that seeks to
> promote diversity. By law, at most 7% of green cards can be awarded to
> citizens of any individual country. So, by this fair principle, in any
> given year, at most 7% of the g
Hi,
on page:
https://hrti.hrt.hr/#/video/show/2203605/trebizat-prica-o-jednoj-vodi-i-jednom-narodu-dokumentarni-film
there is a picture and in the middle of the picture there is a text "Prijavite
se za gledanje!"
If I open the page in firefox and then use menu Tools > Web developer > Page
sour
DFS wrote:
> getAddresses.py
>
> Scrapes addresses from www.usdirectory.com and stores them in a SQLite
> database, or writes them to text files for mailing labels, etc
>
> Now, just by typing 'fast food Taco Bell 10 db all' you can find
> out how many Taco Bells are within 10 miles of you, and
Stephen Hansen wrote:
On Fri, May 6, 2016, at 11:43 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
Whether you think this is a good strategy or not,
beliavsky is right that it's not "equal".
This is a pedantically and nonsensical definition of "equal", that
ignores the many, many reasons why there are 1 in 20 wome
On Sat, 7 May 2016 04:36 pm, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out why the following statements evaluate the way
> they do and I'm not grasping it for some reason. I'm hoping someone can
> help me.
>
> 40+2 is 42 #evaluates to True
> But
> 2**32 is 2**32 #evaluates to False
That is
Zachary,
An update - see below.
Best regards,
Peter
mailto:pyt...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com
>> 2) According to the Programs and Files section of the Windows Control Panel,
>> installing Python also installs something called the Python Launcher. When I
>> try to remove this (so I can reinstall
On Sat, 07 May 2016 18:24:45 +1200, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> DFS wrote:
>> Maybe it worked because the last time the file was written to was in a
>> for loop, so I got lucky and the files weren't truncated? Don't know.
>
> It "works" because CPython disposes of objects as soon as they are not
> re
Gregory Ewing :
> Suppose there are 100 people wanting to ask questions, and there is
> only time to answer 10 questions. If the 1 in 20 ratio holds, then 5
> of those people are women and the other 95 are men.
>
> Alternating between men and women means that all of the women get
> their questions
Thanks Zachary.
I should have put a newbie warning as I've never used or installed Python
before, so some of what you've written goes over my head!
Friday, May 6, 2016, 5:17:23 PM, you wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 6:22 AM, Peter Toye wrote:
>> I'm trying to install Python und
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Stephen Hansen wrote:
> The long and short of it is: you should almost never use 'is' for
> comparing integers (or strings). It doesn't mean what you think it does
> and isn't useful to you. Compare equality.
>
> In general, the only things you should use 'is' for i
On Fri, May 6, 2016, at 11:43 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > Who is setting and enforcing this quota, and given that only about 1 in 20
> > Python programmers is a woman, do you think men are seriously missing out
> > on any opportunities?
>
> Suppose there are 100 people wa
On Fri, May 6, 2016, at 11:36 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out why the following statements evaluate the way
> they do and I'm not grasping it for some reason. I'm hoping someone can
> help me.
>
> 40+2 is 42 #evaluates to True
> But
> 2**32 is 2**32 #evaluates to False
>
>
On Saturday, May 7, 2016 at 12:13:59 PM UTC+5:30, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > Who is setting and enforcing this quota, and given that only about 1 in 20
> > Python programmers is a woman, do you think men are seriously missing out
> > on any opportunities?
>
> Suppose there a
Anthony Papillion wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out why the following statements evaluate the way
> they do and I'm not grasping it for some reason. I'm hoping someone can
> help me.
>
> 40+2 is 42 #evaluates to True
> But
> 2**32 is 2**32 #evaluates to False
>
> This is an example taken from a
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