[GENERAL] Transform_Null_Equals does not work in Functions

); show_transform_problem (1 row) SUNFLOWER=# SELECT show_transform_problem(true); show_transform_problem (1 row) SUNFLOWER=# SET transform_null_equals TO ON; SET SUNFLOWER=# SELECT null=1; ?column? -- f (1 row) -- Daniel Schuchardt

[GENERAL] dynamically access columns in trigger

dynamic statement in my global trigger funktion. Any ideas? -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ /http://www.prodat-sql.de/ -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general

[GENERAL] JOIN Record returning Function

r. But does anyone know a tricky solution for that problem? -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ /http://www.prodat-sql.de/

Re: [GENERAL] postgresql 8.1 windows 2008 64 bit

just fine on 64bit Windows. Just understand that PostgreSQL will be running in 32bit mode, which frankly on windows is not a problem compared to other platforms. Joshua D. Drake -- Mit freundlichen Grüssen, Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ *CIMPCS GmbH *Grünewaldstrasse 19 D-99

Re: [GENERAL] postgresql 8.1 windows 2008 64 bit

Am 13.01.2010 16:00, schrieb Craig Ringer: On 13/01/2010 6:15 PM, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: Hy, can anybody give us a hint if we can use that combination? You can use libpq on 64-bit windows to talk to an 8.1 database if you really must. I really wouldn't recommend running the 8.1 dat

[GENERAL] postgresql 8.1 windows 2008 64 bit

Hy, can anybody give us a hint if we can use that combination? Thanks, Daniel. -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ /http://www.prodat-sql.de/ -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org

Re: [GENERAL] crosstab function - pivot - use column value as column description

See bottom. Am 12.01.2010 22:00, schrieb Merlin Moncure: On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: Hy, i'm looking for a solution to get this table dynamicaly in that resultset: SELECT r_dbrid, r_kategorie AS column_name, r_descr AS value FROM recnokeyword WHERE r_

[GENERAL] crosstab function - pivot - use column value as column description

25737 |farbe | Blau 14725737 |gewicht | 100 kg > material | farbe | gewicht --+-+ alu sorte 1|blau | 100kg > the number of columns depends on data. is there is a simple solution for that? -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ /http://www.pr

Re: [GENERAL] Access a Field / Column of a resultset by Number

thing about how to access a column by fieldname. daniel Scott Marlowe schrieb: On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: thats exactly the same i'm looking for: http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Todo http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2005-07/msg00458.php (tod

[GENERAL] Access a Field / Column of a resultset by Number

s the fieldnames of that resultset and run through all fields (by number or by name). (i need the fieldname too) -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ /http://www.prodat-sql.de/ -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscriptio

Re: [GENERAL] Access a Field / Column of a resultset by Number

, e.g. columns := r.(*), tval2 := r.(colname) * *Re: PL/PGSQL: Dynamic Record Introspection is that is possible in any pl* language? Daniel Schuchardt schrieb: hy group, i currently look for a solution to access a resultset in a db-stored function by number. in plpgsql thats not possible.

Re: [GENERAL] invalid byte sequence for encoding

ginal string? Why does your encoded string end with "\0"? In what character set is null a legal character? Your encoder is incorrect. -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ /http://www.prodat-sql.de/ -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general

Re: [GENERAL] invalid byte sequence for encoding

Hi Thomas, thanks a lot we will check out that parameter. But if i understand it in the correct way that parameter will turn off all escape quoting. I have to check out, thanks a lot. Thomas Kellerer schrieb: Daniel Schuchardt wrote on 13.09.2009 18:51: UPDATE belzeil_frei SET bz_zubez

Re: [GENERAL] invalid byte sequence for encoding

ump's) and other points. All in all will Postgres81 understand this E'' (\\0) escape chars too? Or do we have to make a several version for older Postgres versions? Thanks a lot for your hints, Daniel. Peter Eisentraut schrieb: On sön, 2009-09-13 at 22:21 +0200, Daniel Schucha

Re: [GENERAL] invalid byte sequence for encoding

Ausführungszeit. Peter Eisentraut schrieb: On sön, 2009-09-13 at 18:51 +0200, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: UPDATE belzeil_frei SET bz_zubez= '*', bz_zubez_rtf= '{\\rtf1\\ansi\\deff0{\\fonttbl{\\f0\\fnil\\fcharset0 Arial;}}\r\n\\viewkind4\\uc1\\pard\\lang1031\\fs20 *\r\n\\par }\

Re: [GENERAL] invalid byte sequence for encoding

Hy Scott, as wrote in my awnser to peter everything is working fine in Postgres81. So its not possible thats our parser. Please look in my awnser for peter. Scott Ribe schrieb: In that example i try to insert a "*" with rtf-encoding. It's not the "*" causing the error, it's the "\0"--whi

[GENERAL] invalid byte sequence for encoding

par }\r\n\0' WHERE dbrid=295116 Result : ERROR: invalid byte sequence for encoding "WIN1252": 0x00 In that example i try to insert a "*" with rtf-encoding. i have the same problem with SQL_ASCII Daniel. -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwicklung/ www.prodat-sql.de <

Re: [GENERAL] Foreign Key question

x27;s that have been assigned WorkOrderRef's. As I understand it, FK's are generally used for 1 to many relationships where as this is expressing a 1 to 1 relationship. I would be very grateful for any assistance with this. Thanks, Dave -- Daniel Schuchardt /Softwareentwick

Re: [GENERAL] Autocast script of peter e in PostgreSQL 8.3

Martijn van Oosterhout schrieb: Did you not find this during your searching? http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2008-03/msg00995.php and followups. Have a nice day, no i didnt found it in google. now everything is working and as excpected: EXPLAIN ANALYSE big query Runtime 45

Re: [GENERAL] Autocast script of peter e in PostgreSQL 8.3

Martijn van Oosterhout schrieb: On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 02:09:30PM +0200, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: *SCDS=# SELECT 1||'~'||1; ERROR: operator is not unique: integer || unknown at character 9 HINT: Could not choose a best candidate operator. You might need to add explicit type ca

[GENERAL] Autocast script of peter e in PostgreSQL 8.3

If i use this script http://people.planetpostgresql.org/peter/index.php?/archives/18-Readding-implicit-casts-in-PostgreSQL-8.3.html in PostgreSql 8.3 to reactivate autocast i get the following problems: *without autocast* script (i learned that 8.3 does autocast if one of the || parameters is T

[GENERAL] now i'm really confused. insert/update does autocast, where sometimes.

Daniel Schuchardt schrieb: Hey Group, i know what all will say but i need to recreate the = operator for datatypes varchar and integer in PostgreSQL 8.3. Our Software Project has Millions of Lines and so it would be difficult to check all queries and Datatypes. Also it works really fine

Re: [GENERAL] now i'm really confused. insert/update does autocast, where sometimes.

demo=# ALTER TABLE a ADD COLUMN d VARCHAR; ALTER TABLE demo=# UPDATE a SET d=current_date; UPDATE 3 demo=# SELECT * FROM a WHERE d=current_date; ERROR: operator does not exist: character varying = date at character 24 HINT: No operator matches the given name and argument type(s). You might need

Re: [GENERAL] operator is not unique: integer || integer

Alban Hertroys schrieb: another example?: RAISE NOTICE "error during validation % :", 'ks:"'||ks||'"@"'||loopdate||'"'; (here LoopDate is a DateTime) Ehm... What's wrong with RAISE NOTICE "error during validation ks:"%"@"%" :', ks, loopdate; ? (I don't quite understand the purpose of that

Re: [GENERAL] operator is not unique: integer || integer

Klint Gore schrieb: > RAISE NOTICE "error during validation % :", 'ks:"'||ks||'"@"'||loopdate||'"'; (here LoopDate is a DateTime) You know you can use more than one % in a raise and it will take care of the data types? yes i know. the real code looks like this: S:='another ABG found on ks

Re: [GENERAL] operator varchar = integer

Tom Lane schrieb: David Fetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 05:26:40PM +0200, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: our db has about 500 functions, 300 tables, 1000 indexes, 1200 Views that all use implicit casting. and: everything is working fine ;-) :-P

Re: [GENERAL] operator is not unique: integer || integer

Tino Wildenhain schrieb: RETURN extract(year FROM $1)*100+extract(month FROM $1)-1; was too clean and easy? ;)) Looks like a good oportunity to clean up your code before anything unexpected happens :-) Cheers T. LOL. Yes I don't like such easy things :-P But you see i have a function so

Re: [GENERAL] operator is not unique: integer || integer

Tino Wildenhain schrieb: Hi, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: ... in 81: postgres=# SELECT 1::INTEGER||1::INTEGER; ?column? -- 11 (1 row) *shudder* is this actually a port of an application originally targeted at M*Sql? ;) Are you using those columns somewhere with their real type - as

Re: [GENERAL] operator varchar = integer

Tino Wildenhain schrieb: Hi, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: David Fetter schrieb: That technical debt is a risk to your whole project, and you need to dedicate resources to paying it down. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt> There are ways to get those automated casts, but the

[GENERAL] operator is not unique: integer || integer

yeah, its clear that an upgrade from 8.1 to 8.3 is impossible for us without a major relase. there are to many changes so the whole project has to be rechecked. another example: in 83: postgres=# SELECT 1::INTEGER||1::INTEGER; ERROR: operator does not exist: integer || integer at character 18

Re: [GENERAL] operator varchar = integer

No buts. If you create those automated casts, you are just putting off the inevitable. yes but than it will become a future project. (i think with postgres 8,5 or 8,6 :-P ) You're just confirming the fact that your project is in existential trouble. no, we would get trouble if we upg

Re: [GENERAL] operator varchar = integer

David Fetter schrieb: That technical debt is a risk to your whole project, and you need to dedicate resources to paying it down. There are ways to get those automated casts, but they will only make your situation worse in the long run. Cheers, Davi

Re: [GENERAL] operator varchar = integer

ups; i have this script but forgott to execute it in the new createt db monday morning thnx. Filip Rembiałkowski schrieb: 2008/5/5 Daniel Schuchardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>: Hey Group, i know what all will say but i need to recreate the =

[GENERAL] operator varchar = integer

Hey Group, i know what all will say but i need to recreate the = operator for datatypes varchar and integer in PostgreSQL 8.3. Our Software Project has Millions of Lines and so it would be difficult to check all queries and Datatypes. Also it works really fine and we all know the risk of wro

Re: [GENERAL] bug with >to_char('2007-12-31'::DATE, 'YYYYIW')

:) Daniel Schuchardt schrieb: LOLL2=# SELECT to_char('2007-12-31'::DATE, 'IW'); to_char - 200701 (1 row) 2007-12-31 should be week 2008-01 regards, Daniel. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the

[GENERAL] bug with >to_char('2007-12-31'::DATE, 'YYYYIW')

LOLL2=# SELECT to_char('2007-12-31'::DATE, 'IW'); to_char - 200701 (1 row) 2007-12-31 should be week 2008-01 regards, Daniel. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

Re: [GENERAL] Any Delphi programmers on this list?

So whats the problem? Frank Church schrieb: I need to access PostgreSQL on a low level using libpq.dll. Are there any programmers using Delphi here? Free Pascal users is also fine. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the plan

Re: [GENERAL] shared Locks

Martijn van Oosterhout schrieb: Yes you'r right here. Because we use Cursor Fetch, every statement starts a transaction. So your right I tested it and this forces a table lock. Hm... i will look how to do this in another way. Just COMMIT when you're done. This does kill the cursor thou

Re: [GENERAL] shared Locks

Martijn van Oosterhout schrieb: On Tue, Sep 20, 2005 at 11:18:48AM +0200, Daniel Schuchardt wrote: So if we want to change a table structure (add a field or sth like this) many clients own AccessShareLock's because it seams that a simple SELECT * FROM table will grant a AccessShareLoc

Re: [GENERAL] Blob data type and it's efficiency on PostgreSQL

Stas Oskin schrieb: Hi. We are using PostgreSQL as the RDBMS for our product, and are very happy with it. Recently, we have encountered a need to store a lot of binary files, mainly images (up to ~100,000 files, with sizes varying from 300K-2MB). The question is, how well PostgreSQL

[GENERAL] shared Locks

Hi group, I have the following problem: We have developed a ERP/PPS Developed with pgsql over the last 4 years. Now we introduce it on some of our customers {pgsql works great and gets good ratings :-)} and so we have to change Tablestructure and so on very often. For technologie reasons eve

[GENERAL] Divide a float4 by 1 - what is going on???????

Hi people, can anyone explain what is going on here : ? CIMSOFT=# CREATE TEMP TABLE test (n1 FLOAT4); CREATE TABLE CIMSOFT=# INSERT INTO test (n1) VALUES (2.456677); INSERT 6571521 1 CIMSOFT=# SELECT * FROM test; n1 - 2.45668 (1 row) CIMSOFT=# SELECT n1/1 FROM test; ?column? -

Re: [GENERAL] Delphi 2005, Postgresql, ZEOS & optimistic locking

You could also open a transaction and SELECT FOR UPDATE. So a second transaction can't Select the same data for update. That works fine. (You can try in with pgsql too). Daniel Philippe Lang schrieb: Hi, I've been testing Delphi 2005 with Postgresql 7.4.5, through ZEOS Lib 6.5.1, and I have a qu

Re: [GENERAL] Delphi - Developers start develop Access components

Tony Caduto schrieb: unless we are thinking of something different I do this: sql.clear; sql.add('select myfunction();'); sql.add('fetch all from return_cursor;'); open; > > ?? > How? On EoF of a TDataSet? Its clear that you can fetch manually. How do you do that? > ??? Thats not really cursor f

Re: [GENERAL] Delphi - Developers start develop Access components

Tony Caduto schrieb: The issues mentioned with Zeos have been fixed, the 6.x branch works very well now and it much faster thant the 5.x versions. I use cursors all the time in my functions and return a refcursor which I then fetch. ?? How? On EoF of a TDataSet? Its clear that you can fetch manua

Re: [GENERAL] Delphi - Developers start develop Access components for Postgres?

al Message ----- From: "Daniel Schuchardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: [GENERAL] Delphi - Developers start develop Access components for Postgres? Hy, in thread "Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD" there awnsered some Delphi - D

[GENERAL] Delphi - Developers start develop Access components for Postgres?

Hy, in thread "Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD" there awnsered some Delphi - Developers. We actually use Delphi to access PostgreSQL too. But with some problems: The older Versions of microolab postgresql dac are absolutely trash. I haven't tried the newer ones. ODBC / Delphi BDE is ripped out b

Re: [GENERAL] Adventures in Quest for GUI RAD

Arthur Hoogervorst schrieb: Hi, The company I work for actually uses the Zeos lib/Postgres extensively to track the shipping and sales side for almost 3 years. We're still running on a 7.2/7.4 Postgres database, because I haven't been convinced yet to either update or upgrade to 8.x.x. I'm curious

Re: [GENERAL] Windows install/uninstall as a "service"

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: When I did the windows install (NOT as a windows service) but as a task to be manually started and stopped, it did not creat a DATA directory, nor did it create a postgresql.conf file. I even used windows explorer search to confirm that no such file exists. I did the

Re: [GENERAL] What means Postgres?

Michael Fuhr schrieb: According to "The design of POSTGRES" by Stonebreaker and Rowe, POSTGRES means "POST inGRES" (the successor to INGRES). Various other sources say that INGRES means "INteractive Graphics (and) REtrieval System." Ah, this is what i searched. I read http://www.postgresql.org/doc

[GENERAL] What means Postgres?

Just for fun and interrest. What means Postgres? Where and why this name was born? Daniel ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Re: [GENERAL] Can't install plpython on Windows 8.0

Magnus Hagander schrieb: Probably the problem has to do with not finding the underlying language's DLL (eg, python.dll). Do I need to install a particular version of python then? Is there any further documentation that can help me with this? Darn if I know. If the inst

Re: [GENERAL] Can't install plpython on Windows 8.0

Steve - DND schrieb: I just tried using createlang to install plpython into a database on my Windows 8.0 installation and continue to receive the error below. The file plpython.dll is in exactly the location specified below as well. What exactly am I doing wrong here? createlang -e -U postgres plpy

Re: [GENERAL] Inheritance and such

Stephane Bortzmeyer schrieb: I have a problem which MAY be in the same category. CREATE TABLE base ( id serial not null primary key, ); CREATE TABLE specialized ( ) INHERITS base; Now, I try to set up a trigger AFTER UPDATE ON base but, when I update "specialized", the trigger is not called. Same

[GENERAL] PG 8.0.1 Does not use Index with IS NOT NULL

Hy List, I have a problem with this Query : SELECT * FROM lifsch WHERE l_dokunr IS NOT NULL ORDER BY l_dokunr; CIMSOFT=# ANALYSE lifsch; ANALYZE CIMSOFT=# EXPLAIN ANALYSE SELECT * FROM lifsch WHERE l_dokunr IS NULL; QUERY PLAN --

Re: [GENERAL] delphi -> postgresql database connect ???

Burak B&B wrote: hi, delphi to postgresql database connect commands and source code free download . Please. Tanks. Burak BÝTÝKÇÝ _ Yagmura yakalanmamak için sadece semsiyenize degil, MSN hava durumuna güvenin! http://www.msn.com.tr/

Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL 8 on windows very slow

lol wrote: I have tried RC4, but there's no differences My results using my configuration are : MySQL 4 is 6 times faster than pgSQL Firebird 1.5 is 3 times faster than pgSQL Are these results coherent ? May be the problem comes more from ZeosLib than pgSQL8 what zeoslib do you use? 6.X? thay are

Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL 8 on windows very slow

lol wrote: Hi, I'm currently testing several databases for an application written in Delphi 7. I use zeos lib to access PostreSQL8-RC1 on MS-Windows 2000 SP4. PostrgreSQL is extremly slow, with a lot of disk access on INSERT request. Have-you seen this problem ? May be some parameters should be adj

Re: [GENERAL] Exporting/moving Postgress Instance

Nick schrieb: Otherwise is there an recognised dump file in the same way that Oracle has and if so how do I create it? Hi Nick, you should look at pg_dump or pg_dumpall in the docs. (or pg_dump --help) restore the dumped database with psql. Daniel ---(end of broadcast)--

Re: [GENERAL] Microsoft Project and PostgreSQL?

Klaus Harbo schrieb: according to the manual. A simple test with PostgreSQL results in an error something like 'Unknown data type "lo"'. It seems that you try to access binary data fields. In postgresql the type lo (BLOB) is implemented as oid or bytea. Read in the archives. Try CREATE DOMAIN

[GENERAL] Trigger question

Hi list, i'm a bit confused. I have a table with a trigger after insert. It is possible that this trigger will do inserts in the same table, but is the after insert trigger fired again in this case? (I would need this) e.g. USER INSERT BEFORE TRIGGER AFTER TRIGGER ->DECIDES TO INSERT X ROWS IN T

[GENERAL] Postgres 8.0 -> BEGIN EXCEPTION END Syntax????

Hi , can anybody tell me the postgres - syntax for begin excepion end if I want to ignore the error? BEGIN exception ... EXCEPTION WHEN OTHERS THEN ?what to write for do nothing? END; in oracle it's WHEN OTHERS THEN null; but this syntax doesn't work in postgres. thnx Daniel

Re: [GENERAL] Time problem again?

Title: Nachricht No, not really   perhaps you can do a ORDER BY (oid || yourtimefield). So you have the RecordOrder in the way the records where inserted.   Daniel     I need to sort some data based on a Time field and the times can cross both midnight and noon. As far as I can tell, th

Re: [GENERAL] psql and blob

Am Do, 2003-09-18 um 20.21 schrieb Darko Prenosil: - Original Message - From: "Daniel Schuchardt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Doug McNaught" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [G

Re: [GENERAL] psql and blob

Yes thats it. Thanks. Am Mi, 2003-09-17 um 22.42 schrieb Doug McNaught: > Daniel Schuchardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Hi @ all, > > > > i'm sure there was a psql-function to transfere my Blob-Data to the > > server but I can't remember. >

Re: [GENERAL] psql and blob

Thanks Am Mi, 2003-09-17 um 22.42 schrieb Doug McNaught: > Daniel Schuchardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Hi @ all, > > > > i'm sure there was a psql-function to transfere my Blob-Data to the > > server but I can't remember. > > The psq

[GENERAL] psql and blob

Hi @ all, i'm sure there was a psql-function to transfere my Blob-Data to the server but I can't remember. I have a script like this : UPDATE xy SET z = lo_import('localpath_and_file'); but i want to execute this script from the client and so my blob-data is on the client and lo_import fails (t

Re: [GENERAL] psql and blob

EMAIL PROTECTED] rg] Im Auftrag von Darko Prenosil Gesendet: Mittwoch, 17. September 2003 20:07 An: Daniel Schuchardt; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: Re: [GENERAL] psql and blob http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.3/interactive/largeobjects.html is what You need. Regards ! ---(e

[GENERAL] psql and blob

Hi @ all, i'm sure there was a psql-function to transfere my Blob-Data to the server but I can't remember. I have a script like this : UPDATE xy SET z = lo_import('localpath_and_file'); but i want to execute this script from the client and so my blob-data is on the client and lo_import fails (t

Re: [GENERAL] Picture with Postgres and Delphi

Hi Edwin, it depends on the components u use in Delphi. Normally Pictures and ohter binary data is stored in the FieldType oid. I noticed that bytea isn't mapped as TBlobField in Delphi in most components. I also don't know if you are able to use the PG-Functions lo_import(), lo_export() and so on

[GENERAL] Kill -9 Postmaster and Temporary Tables

Hi @ all, I'v noticed if you kill -9 the Postmaster Temporary Tables (Shemas) will stay in the DB. Also a VACUUM FULL will not remove them after restart. If the server craches (no power) its the same (I'v noticed it here) Daniel. ---(end of broadcast)-

Re: [GENERAL] 2 connections 1 transaction

stag, 17. Juli 2003 14:23 An: Daniel Schuchardt; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: Re: [GENERAL] 2 connections 1 transaction Hi Daniel, Maybe make procedural wrappers around all events undertaken and simulate it? ie: 1. Client connects to MS SQL Server (Application Server) and PG Server 2. SQL Server con

[GENERAL] 2 connections 1 transaction

Title: Nachricht Hi @ all,   Our software consists of a Client-Side App and a Application Server. Every client owns a direct connection to the PSql-Server and for every Client the Application-Server also creates a connection to the PSql-Server. The problem is that it is nescesary that the C