n some other language the two substitutions are swapped? (And I know
> there are case & gender issues, amongst other things. Maybe I should add
> "learn Japanese" to my perl 6 todo list for this...)
IIRC, there was also a TPJ article on this a while back.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
rmation or
explanation, which, I sincerely hope, will be tolerated and answered,
as opposed to ignored or flamed. Hint hint.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
unds, and supposedly 'this or that' is less common
for file tests.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
rld-readable, how about group-writable
and world-moderated?
(Or just plain moderated, with the flavor o' the day being
autohandled...)
It's more work, which I am not a fan of, but I'm not a fan of everybody
having a say, nor a select few workers having a say.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
o anything, and Uri
and Company are going to be coding in the dregs There's no reason
that they couldn't get the base down, work more on flushing out its
functionality, and turn over some of the more trivial stuff to some of
us trying to be a little more active.
Hmmm, I seem to have digressed from the original point
-- Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
r name as much as possible, so I will probably be switching
at some point, which should help the above filtering problem.
--
Bryan C. Warnock ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
- Original Message -
From: "Nathan Torkington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Not only is it wrong, it's also hurting our chances. When an article
> in perl.com is so overwhelmingly negative about the work so far, do
> you think that stirs confidence in what we're doing? Do you think
> that peop
_flags(flags_and_such, PL_DONT_CRASH | PL_RUN_FASTER | PL_DWIM);
PAPI_set_malloc_arena(flags_and_such, *malloc_func, *arena);
return_code = perl6_parse(interp, source, flags_and_such, NULLP);
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Andy Dougherty wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
>
> > You don't want the compiler design to be a 'hands-on experiment' for us
> > inexperienced folk? That's not elitist, that's pragmatic.
> >
&g
s pragmatic.
You don't want this to be a learning experience - (corrections, observations,
answers) - to the same? *That's* elitist.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
RABA Technologies
is probably more of a meta item,
and the distro has been modified as such.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
RABA Technologies
opportunity to prove that I am apprentice
material. (I think too many PAWBs are looking for opportunities to prove that
they are master material. I'm not about to shoot myself in the foot that way.
At least on purpose. Slap me around if I get too obnoxious.)
Apologies to David Grove: much longer winded this time
--
Bryan C. Warnock
RABA Technologies
lpers. Andy codes a foo-gork
comparison test, asking Dan to have one of the group apprentices do the
actual benchmarking, since he'll be too busy with something else. Dan
then pings on one of the group apprentices to grab the code and run the
tests.
Truncation station. Feedback? On track, or wy off base?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
RABA Technologies
;s two that I rely on: "Guidebook For
Marines", (0-940328-07-0), and "Handbook for Marine NCOs" (0-87021-254-0).
The latter is out of print. I also have, but have not finished, David
Freedman's "Corps Business: The 30 Management Principles of the U.S. Marines"
(0-06-661978-5). Anyone care to guess what service I was in? :-)
> You skipped journeyman. :-)
Uh-oh. Now everyone will know I didn't pay my union dues.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
career path" dead-ending at personal lackey,
however. But, hey, that's why we're getting paid the big bucks, right?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
ion mailing lists, and likely the limited storage space
> on tmtowtdi (or whatver variation it's spelling is), is there any way that
> this could become a realistic goal?
The produced documentation, ideally. Communication distilled to the necessary
facts.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
RABA Technologies
ld be better
implemented as a gork2 call." "Okay, then write us a gork2 call."
It may be group selection, ie, "You know, Billy Bob seems to have a lot of
good insights, let's see if we can get him a little more involved."
It may be luck of the draw, ie, &quo
ds to Larry's
RFC review? I certainly appreciate the non-rush, but it's been quiet.
Almost *too* quiet....
--
Bryan C. Warnock
RABA Technologies
r quick question. Are the PDDs expect to go terminal at
the delivery of Perl 6, or should the active PDDs continue to evolve and govern
Perl 6 maintenance as well? (If that makes any sense.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
RABA Technologies
ne hundred thousand ten
millionths.
How did we get on this subject? Oh, yes, sorting by the number spelled out...
That should throw several cultures for a loop.
Four and twenty blackbirds, baked 'e' and 'pi'.
>
> Ghod knows how this GST would have you pronounce 5.
... like Perl 6 development and
internals and other stuff that noone on these lists gives a hoot about. :-)
(Watch your distro and subjects... you're confusing my procmind.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
DWIMs. Sort of a self-executable zip file.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
27;m withholding the attachment, which is a skeleton PDD.)
=head1 TITLE
Perl Design Documents
=head1 VERSION
=head2 CURRENT
Maintainer: Bryan C. Warnock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Class: Meta
PDD Number: TBD
Version: 2
Status: Proposed
Last Modified: 9 February 2001
ce
"stability" is now "stagnatation."
Microsoft's PR department just earned their paychecks. More, more, more
useless things.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
trigger garbage collection and
resource reallocation? (Not that this addresses the remainder of your
post.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
the destruction
> order problem.
Well, no. My thought would be if A needed to be destroyed before B, then B
wouldn't/shouldn't be marked for GC until after A was destroyed. It might
take several sweeps to clean an entire dependency tree, unfortunately.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
> reference counting? You can save some memory by only reference counting
> objects and not simple values, but this increases runtime cost beyond
> simply reference counting everything.
Well, if I knew this answer, I'd be a pillar of the Perl community. :-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
the archive and decompress it on-the-fly.
Is that '.tar and .zip' as in '.tar and .zip' or '.tar or .zip'?
Aren't most tars still unindexed, requiring a full file scan anyway?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ps as contributors
while you handle the editing?
[1] See the massive thread starting at
http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg00584.html
BTW, lead from the front, so I'll volunteer.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The original eval?
- and forego it for any runtime evals that need to be done. Of course, Perl
is more complicated that that.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
y, which will result in a noop
for most PMCs? Or am I layers too low?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
So you want to force people to adhere to strict rules, but it would be too
onerous to force them to adhere to strict rules?
(Personally, I don't care about the extra warnings, as long as I can shut
them up. That doesn't really change perl's behavior. Forced strictness
does.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
this:
http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-4825719-RHAT.html?tag=ltnc
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
On Friday 16 February 2001 07:36, Branden wrote:
> But it surely isn't
> consistent with the rest of the language.
It's consistent with "our" and "local", which are really the only other
things in the language that parallel its use.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
bwarnock@(gtemail.net|capita.com)
improvement to the product,
- you don't make any of these decisions arbitrarily.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
r. chop(), s/.// and the like are much more efficient
*and*
> much easier to code if you know how many bytes you're taking off
beforehand.
And address arithmetic and mem(cmp|cpy) is faster than array iteration.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
c. Even with Inline, now, there
still needs to be some heavy interface - but there would still be some
consistency.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
sed for UTF-32 string comparison, because
> of endian issue.
???
Are you sure you're talking about the same thing as the rest of us?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
he should not put parenthesis around `my's list of variables.
Then maybe the documentation should be improved. Maybe makng a clearer
delineation and how and why and when these work are in order.
Particularly once attributes come out in full force, which will also bind
more tightly than ,
led. The actual code was
(my($foo),local($"),our($bar),my($baz)) = @_;
;-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
is RFC is acted upon, I
reserve
> those numbers in advance. ;-))
Which shows that you haven't read the instructions for submitting an RFC.
:-)
Seriously, though, read PDD 0, and comment on it. No one else has.
(Follow up post coming.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mat should also be 0. (Unless that's something that
needs to be tweaked in PDD 0's Implementation section.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ten meaningless *with* the code.
The third, maybe, if only for trivialness. :-)
>
> 6. Can we leave the details of pod/apidoc/rfc281 until 1..5 have been
> agreed?
Good idea. Define the why, the what, and then the how.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
it at
development for a little while, if only because I have some more changes
coming down the pike. (The actual formatting will stay the same, so I
guess Simon would call these meta-meta-meta changes.)
Ask, all, are we reusing perl6-rfc as the submittal address, or will there
be a new one (pe
sound effects, and this
voice-over guy that gives instructions. The first instruction given in the
setup box? If you'd like to turn off the voice, click this box. Nothing
else is sound dependent. Somehow I think there's a lesson to be learned
here.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday 20 February 2001 16:03, John Porter wrote:
> Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> >
> > And there's a difference between warnings originating because something
has
> > gone wrong and those originating because I'm doing something
particularly
> > per
n that any 'cleverness' that you might have that causes
warnings
> in perl6 will *probably* be a mistake.
Certainly, because it seems that all things inherently Perl are being
removed from the language. :-(
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
enough.
Regardless of the outcome, the initial set of RFCs should be set off
somewhere. (And a lot of them aren't listed as frozen, at that!)
>
>
> --
> Peter Scott
> Pacific Systems Design Technologies
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
27;s discuss amongst ourselves before we speak with one voice.
The PDD should be that one voice - all the arguments should be done and
over with.
PDDs should be born with builtin maturity.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
did we want to make this Perl 6 specific, or Perl generic (like perl-qa is)?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
starting point for the currying documentation.
Lest the architect say, "Build me a house", and then complain that we don't
match the plans he never gave us.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
r of the
two-tier system that you're talking about. I wasn't going to be so formal
as to require an RFC, but then again, there's no reason to prohibit them,
either. An RFC is a good way to present an argument, vice the incoherent
babble that people like me put out, as well as a good transition to a PDD
Proposal.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
he PDD has a Class field to distinguish between internals,
meta, and language already.)
If we go with mulitple documents, is the numbering scheme concurrent?
I'm also thinking heavily about change requests, and whether they should be
separate, or a stage beyond Standard. Pros and cons welcome.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday 20 February 2001 17:30, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 02:15 PM 2/20/2001 -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> >Bryan C. Warnock writes:
> > > Ask, all, are we reusing perl6-rfc as the submittal address, or will
there
> > > be a new one (perl-pdd)?
> >
> &
hould the Perl cabal deem that, for Perl to improve, it *must* undergo
these radical changes, I will, to the best of my meager abilities, attempt
to implement them.
My position may seem a bit extreme - after all, didn't I, in the second
RFC, attempt to autoprint statements in a void context? I started in the
middle of the road, but as arguments like this have continued, I've moved
wy to the minimalist's side. Hey, overhaul Perl to your heart's
content so that you're able to do x, y, and z; just so long as Perl itself
doesn't do x, y, and z.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
to be merging again with the RFC process - so maybe not.
Of course, if we put too much structure in place, no one will use it, and
we'll either see more non-experimental Experimental PDDs, or no PDDs at all.
>
> That's a good idea, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's t
independent numbering schemes, which could lead to confusion, or a single
numbering scheme, which begs the question of why seperate them in the first
place.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thursday 22 February 2001 16:56, Edward Peschko wrote:
> Here for example was something that was totally missed in the RFCs and
*should*
> be spec'd out (I believe):
Yes, totally missed
http://dev.perl.org/rfc/78.pod
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ls should be automatically submitted as an RFC,
indicating that it was a candidate proposal for PDD #, but was rejected.
This will provide a single repository for unimplemented ideas.
__END__
I apologize if I'm being rather anal about this. I'm giving a solid PDD
foundation a 50/50 chance of actually working and lasting a single revision
of Perl 6. Anything shakier, and it may not be worth the time to even
bother.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ifications.
If there's something bogus in there, then we re-specify, not continually
defer.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ew company" as a suggestion, withhold your
email - I'm considering it.
Thanks,
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
^
(To be fair, this is currently in the "working" stage, so please hold
judgement in reserve.)
, a textual
respresentation of a language, then you'll have to consider locale issues.
At some point.
Okay, now I see Hong's response. Yes, I'm understanding now. Not character
equivalence from a linguistic perspective, but simply
/({base glyph}{combining glyphs}*)/
Okay,
limited in what
> we have left. We still need a zero-width assertion for glyph boundary
> within regexes themselves.
>
> >We need the character equivalence construct, such as [[=a=]], which
> >matches "a", "A ACUTE".
>
> Yeah, we really need a big list of these. PDD anyone?
>
But surely this is a locale issue, and not an encoding one? Not every
language recognizes the same character equivalences.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tch every time.
> Of course, we may not be able to say that, in which case hints of any sort
> are a Good Thing.
Yes. One way or t'other.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
d work for plain perl
> data structures as well, as we might potentially be doing a fair amount of
> data conversion through the variable vtable interface. (Not to mention the
> issues of data mangling for proper Unicode sorting support)
>
> Dan
>
> --"it's like this"---
> Dan Sugalski even samurai
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even
> teddy bears get drunk
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
t to the list (not to the
> RFC/PDD editor yet, please). We'll go over it and if it passes muster it'll
> go in.
>
To which I'll add, I hope hopefully that I'll hopefully have a hopefully
revised PDD 0 hopefully put forth hopefully sometime this weekend.
Hopefully.
Dan, I'm getting 'Forbidden' on the above address.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
would see it (or, rather, not see it) as _Perl_str_to_UTF().
> > > Less typing for private things, and more for the much smaller (and
> > > probably not used internally) set of public functions.
>
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
it's like this"---
> Dan Sugalski even samurai
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even
> teddy bears get drunk
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(missing operator)
>
> beautiful. Then extending this is simple, consistent, easy to read,
> compatible with perl5..
I'm not sure that that was the point I was trying to make.
If nothing else, the '.' would then be responsible for *three*
different actions.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
pull double duty as a decimal point, as well.
'4.5' (4.5) vs '4 .5' (45) vs '4. 5' (missing operator)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
= ( foo => 1, bar => '=>', baz => 1 )
Or it could be
%foo = ( foo => 1, bar => 1, '=>' => 'baz' )
But I like the concept of a quote hash.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
C, with thousands of
> typedefs representing basic types ("LPSTR" and "HWND" come to mind as the
> most common).
Not mention the hoop-jumping required to keep variable names in sync with
code changes. (signed-ness, short->int->long, etc)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
? You didn't test it before you posted it? For shame! ;-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday 15 May 2001 21:17, Simon Cozens wrote:
> On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 09:11:21PM -0400, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> > What? You didn't test it before you posted it? For shame! ;-)
>
> Bah. Damian and I are working on ways of prototyping the Perl 6
> interpreter in
e perl 6.0;
use >= perl 6.0; # or use perl >= 6.0?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
at Perl is going to grow out of its niche,
but that it's going to outgrow it. It's great that Perl has been able to
expand to be so many things to so many people, but not at the expense of
forgetting its roots - of the whole Right Tool / Right Job that it came
from.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wednesday 16 May 2001 15:32, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Bryan C. Warnock writes:
> > I think the biggest fear isn't that Perl is going to grow out of its
> > niche, but that it's going to outgrow it. It's great that Perl has been
> > able to expand to be s
t; and laid out around the central blob of "Basic Perl" that everyone
> > knows (variables, assignment, math, chomp, printing, etc).
>
> Oh, OK, then. http://simon-cozens.org/pictures/perlmap.gif
Hey, I can see my house from here!
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
in relative(!) isolation.)
That was early on, but is it still the case? Are these two concepts we want
to merge, or keep separate?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
know aren't
going to need to be converted from one form to another. But then you need
to handle the two paths in the rest of your vtable entries. Unless you make
everything run through the registers.
Your not going to make opcodes {shudder} dependent on implicit registers,
are you? :-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ng
Warnock's Dilemma).
Do any of the aforementioned WG Chairs need to step down or turn over the
reins?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ls have been
> > worked out (barring Warnock's Dilemma).
>
> Oh dear, dare I ask "Warnock's Dilemma" is?
David Mitchell's label
(http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg02558.html) of my
extreme pessimism and paranoia at posting (as explained at
http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg01126.html).
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or special blurb?
Marked all lists as 'Closed' except for -qa, -build, -internals, -language,
-meta, and -stdlib.
Minor stuff, like data file comments and entry sorting.
Did I miss anything? Or, more importantly, break anything?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
before. It seems if we solve the Unicode
issue, we've solved the bytecode issue, too. Better yet, make all the
opcodes map to UTF-8 characters, so you can write and execute bytecode as
simple strings. ;-)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
vice -1 for all items.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Saturday 02 June 2001 11:21 am, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> On Friday 01 June 2001 11:06 pm, David L. Nicol wrote:
> > having wantarray return the number of items needed, or -1 for
> > all of them, would work very nicely for user-written partial returners.
> >
> > Did
necessary to completely separate
the two would not benefit either Perl, or the stand-alone engine, for both
cases, so why bother? IOW, if you're not going to completely exorcise Perl
from its regexes, why try to exorcise the regexes from Perl?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
instead of rolling your own. No need to have locale
handlers for locales you won't use.
Of course, being Unicode neutral, that still leaves some stuff (like case
determination) undefined. So maybe there should be a default locale in
place - the current, or barring that, English, I suppose.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
sking the
applications to handle, in an effort to make the hard things easy. (And for
some of these languages, it can be quite hard.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
emedous potential (for pain *and* pleasure), but the idea
should be to foist the burden only on the folks that want it. (And since I
directly support text mungers, I'm one of them.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
thinking more in the sense of the above properties)?
Print direction only when printing. The data itself is unidirectional.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
/. rebuttal of the original article at
http://slashdot.org/features/01/06/06/0132203.shtml, for those that haven't
seen it yet.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
may signal
something completely different to some other language.
The hooks don't have to be that complicated, or even exist, since it seems
that they are simply being done for the convenience of the user. (To
simplify regexes.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ng that. We just need to determine how.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tween every pairs of characters, right (since every character is a
> \w, kinda...)?
Okay. I was on the fence, just fell off on the wrong side.
I also missed... literals. We can't create new literals, (can we?) but can
we override them? Would it make sense to do so? (I can only think of
transliteration of languages that are 1-1 across the character sets.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
do
> you think [a-\N{KATAKANA LETTER KI}] should mean? I think it should
> mean a compile time error. People misuse ranges for classes. Ranges
> also imply some collation, which is, as discussed, really bad.
Yes, ranges are bad, but they're occasionally useful.
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tuesday 12 June 2001 10:58 pm, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> On Tuesday 12 June 2001 09:16 pm, Simon Cozens wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 05:41:40PM -0700, Hong Zhang wrote:
> > > We should let external collator to handle all these fancy features.
> >
> > Phew, I
uot; with /[a]/, but
> without changing the sort order. "locale" is a bit too much "all or
> nothing" for me.
That would probably be another good use for literal overriding.
use re 'literal a => [aàáâãä]';
my $foo = "abàcádãe";
print $foo =~ /a.a/g;
(after the loader is finished
> with them) while the opcode section has none. This will allow us to
> mmap precompiled code and share at least some of it amongst multiple
> processes.
>
I assume from this description, then, that there's really (3 x number of
compilation units) segments?
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*defined* via that.
module Locale::Hawaiian;
use re 'class (\w => [aeiouâêîôûhklmnpw`])';
...
On a side note (and this *will* sound stupid, but there is a reason I'm
asking). Why is there no logical opposite to '.'; that is, a character
which never matches another character? (Besides, of course, that it's
utterly useless from a classic regex perspective.)
--
Bryan C. Warnock
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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