> "NT" == Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
NT> Implementation is different from design, and different again from
NT> maintenance. If we do the design, test cases, and stubbing well
NT> enough, we could have a cast of thousands doing the implementation.
cecil b. demillions
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 06:01:16PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
>> "General consensus" is best, but that can't be guaranteed. "Consensus of
>> the ruling council" is more attainable, but there's that whole "ruling
>> council" thing to contend with. "What Larry says" is best, but what
> happens
>>
David Grove wrote:
> The
> community need that I _know_ is being ignored is the ability to have a perl
> that's not taking a dive toward being slopped all over with the four-colored
> flag.
David, please, you must be more specific and less idiomatic. I
don't even know what the four-colored fl
Dan Sugalski wrote:
>
> Works. We still have those Quantum Ninja that we're holding in reserve for
> Damian... :)
Yeah... they're vicious, too - they kick ass in constant time. ;-)
-Nate
At 04:51 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Daniel Chetlin wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 08:23:07PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > Having had cause to root around in the archives of perl6 and perl5 lists,
> > can I suggest that we use the system that perl5-porters is archived on in
> > preference to the syste
At 09:04 PM 10/10/00 -0400, Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
> > On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> >
> > > Closed-for-posting mailing lists that are publically readable is the
> > > best suggestion we've had to meet these ends so far.
> > >
> > > Anyone have better suggestions?
> >
>
>Instead
At 05:59 PM 10/10/00 -0500, David Grove wrote:
>On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 3:27 PM, Simon Cozens [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>wrote:
> > Consider:
> > "Public Opinion": Hey, we need Perl 6 stable in three weeks.
> > Coders: But, uhm, we haven't started coding yet.
>
>Consider:
>Microsof
At 08:50 PM 10/10/00 -0500, David Grove wrote:
>Group: I have now had seventeen requests to fork perl from people other than
>"elitists" apparently joking (?) about it.
I haven't been. I don't think anyone else has either. It's not a joke, and
it is a valid thing to do.
>The answer is ABSOLUTEL
At 06:58 PM 10/10/00 -0500, Tad McClellan wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 03:42:48PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> > At 12:31 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Stephen Zander wrote:
> > > > "Dan" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Dan> A better analogy is that Larry's the Bishop and Chief
>
At 07:09 PM 10/10/00 -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>Dan Sugalski writes:
> > "General consensus" is best, but that can't be guaranteed. "Consensus of
> > the ruling council" is more attainable, but there's that whole "ruling
> > council" thing to contend with. "What Larry says" is best, but what
>
>
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>
>> Closed-for-posting mailing lists that are publically readable is the
>> best suggestion we've had to meet these ends so far.
>>
>> Anyone have better suggestions?
>
> I don't know that this is _better_, but...perhaps we could have
> the l
> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
DS> At 01:50 PM 10/10/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>> There is an intermediate method, have our own execution and data stack.
>> Basically build a TIL interpreter. This might be intermediate in speed
>> between raw machine code and the perl
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 8:03 PM, Nathan Torkington [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
wrote:
> I think we're talking about two different periods of development here.
>
> The immediate question facing us is how to structure software design.
> This is different from the ongoing maintenance of Perl.
>
>
Nathan Torkington writes:
> Mail me direct if you want to volunteer. Thanks,
We have a winner! No more calls, please.
Thanks,
Nat
I'd like a volunteer to research and HTMLify the reading list. I
collected everyone's books (and will add my list when I get back to
the house). I just need someone to dig up ISBN numbers, Amazon links,
and HTMLify it all into submission.
Mail me direct if you want to volunteer. Thanks,
Nat
Dan Sugalski writes:
> "General consensus" is best, but that can't be guaranteed. "Consensus of
> the ruling council" is more attainable, but there's that whole "ruling
> council" thing to contend with. "What Larry says" is best, but what happens
> if he doesn't, or gets hit by a bus at some po
I think we're talking about two different periods of development here.
The immediate question facing us is how to structure software design.
This is different from the ongoing maintenance of Perl.
We want and need a small group to design perl6 correctly. I can't see
this working any other way.
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>
> > Closed-for-posting mailing lists that are publically readable is the
> > best suggestion we've had to meet these ends so far.
> >
> > Anyone have better suggestions?
>
Instead of group-writable and world-readable, how about group-writable
an
Sorry if Off topic
Looking for a Perl programmer in Brisbane , Australia
using DBI inetrface to mysql Database
If interested please drop me a line
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 03:42:48PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> At 12:31 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Stephen Zander wrote:
> > > "Dan" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Dan> A better analogy is that Larry's the Bishop and Chief
> > Dan> Architect, while the rest of us are engineer
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 08:23:07PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> Having had cause to root around in the archives of perl6 and perl5 lists,
> can I suggest that we use the system that perl5-porters is archived on in
> preference to the system that the perl6 lists use (MHonArc, apparently).
> Perso
Dave Storrs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Is anyone here familiar with the behind-the-scenes process and politics
> of the Linux development community?
Not heavily familiar, but I know some details. (My knowledge is that of
someone who's been following linux-kernel sporadically for a year or tw
Peter Buckingham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I think that it is important that the developers have some free method
> of communication without being bogged down by insignificant details.
While I definitely agree with this, and I find the idea of focused,
read-only lists for core developers a r
Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> At 09:31 AM 10/10/00 -0600, John Barnette wrote:
>> D'you think it's a possibility to provide read-only access to the lists
>> for interested parties? I'm certainly not competent enough to
>> contribute to a core discussion, for example, but I have no d
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 3:51 PM, Simon Cozens [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 03:38:17PM -0500, Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
> > Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see a problem yet. If Perl were
> > somehow being "taken over", then I expect the Perl community (at the
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 3:27 PM, Simon Cozens [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
wrote:
> Consider:
> "Public Opinion": Hey, we need Perl 6 stable in three weeks.
> Coders: But, uhm, we haven't started coding yet.
Consider:
Microsoft: We need Perl by April 15th
Head Cheese: Ok, sure
At 11:12 PM 10/10/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 06:01:16PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> > "General consensus" is best, but that can't be guaranteed. "Consensus of
> > the ruling council" is more attainable, but there's that whole "ruling
> > council" thing to contend with.
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 06:01:16PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> "General consensus" is best, but that can't be guaranteed. "Consensus of
> the ruling council" is more attainable, but there's that whole "ruling
> council" thing to contend with. "What Larry says" is best, but what happens
> if he
At 01:50 PM 10/10/00 -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote:
>There is an intermediate method, have our own execution and data stack.
>Basically build a TIL interpreter. This might be intermediate in speed
>between raw machine code and the perl vararg calls.
Perl functions that are called from outside will h
At 10:48 PM 10/10/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
>On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 05:40:04PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> > You're being too specific. There is no assumption possible that perl
> > developers will do *anything*. Ever. This is a volunteer community. Any
> > other assumption you might make is
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 05:40:04PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> You're being too specific. There is no assumption possible that perl
> developers will do *anything*. Ever. This is a volunteer community. Any
> other assumption you might make is unfounded.
David also seems to miss the irony that
At 02:11 PM 10/10/00 -0500, David Grove wrote:
>However what I was responding to was the shutting out of anyone who
>doesn't agree with the politics of the perl elite, and wants to mouth off
>from time to time (me). You sort of have to read between the lines on this
>one, Peter, because this is
> "David" == David Grove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
David> The community need that I _know_ is being ignored is the
David> ability to have a perl that's not taking a dive toward being
David> slopped all over with the four-colored flag. Community interest
David> must take a higher precedence
David Grove wrote:
> To those who don't know the old argument, which out of respect for the list and
> the listmaster I won't detail
Frankly, I think not knowing the details of the "old argument" makes it
more difficult to understand your stance.
Is there an email archive of said argument somew
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 03:38:17PM -0500, Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
> Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see a problem yet. If Perl were
> somehow being "taken over", then I expect the Perl community (at the
> very least, one David Grove :-) to be up in arms about it.
And then they could fork,
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 1:33 PM, Jonathan Scott Duff
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> David Grove wrote:
> > Read-only and carefully censored lists are irrelevant to the goals of
> > Perl 6's giving voice to the perl community. They lead us right back
> > where we were before, with a core
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 03:11:54pm -0500, David Grove wrote:
> They think I'm paranoid and the only one who sees the danger.
> Relatively few people speak openly about it for fear of getting the
> same beatings I get on a regular basis. Frankly I think it's
> important for these guys just to real
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 03:11:54PM -0500, David Grove wrote:
> Perhaps, then, there should be one more officer, chosen by Larry himself.
> This person would be responsible for collecting public opinions and
> representing them to the developer group, who needs to follow that guidance
> as long as
Dan Sugalski wrote:
>
> > > Just that it not be *too* hard to get on the closed lists
> >
> >Yep, this is my only concern. It should be reasonably easy to say "I
> >really want to help" and get on the closed lists. Perhaps the best way
> >of making sure the lists don't bloat into "everyone has a
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 1:26 PM, Andy Dougherty
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> [An offlist request for clarification, though I invite you to follow-up to
> the perl6-meta list if you deem appropriate]
Absolutely it's appropriate. They think I'm paranoid and the only one who sees
the dan
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 12:34:33PM -0700, Dave Storrs wrote:
> is there some way we can duplicate/adapt
> their process so that we can simultaneously put to rest both David Grove's
> concerns about elitism and Dan Sugalski's concerns about lack of planning?
No.
--
Everything that can ever be in
Nathan Wiger wrote:
> I was going to suggest a criteria for initial membership of having
> authored at least a CPAN module or core patch, but I'm not sure. It
> seems reasonable that someone shouldn't be programming core if they
> haven't really done anything big in Perl before (and given it back)
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:51 AM, Dan Sugalski [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> >Yep, this is my only concern. It should be reasonably easy to say "I
> >really want to help" and get on the closed lists. Perhaps the best way
> >of making sure the lists don't bloat into "everyone has an opinio
On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Closed-for-posting mailing lists that are publically readable is the
> best suggestion we've had to meet these ends so far.
>
> Anyone have better suggestions?
I don't know that this is _better_, but...perhaps we could have
the lists that
At 12:31 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Stephen Zander wrote:
> > "Dan" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dan> A better analogy is that Larry's the Bishop and Chief
> Dan> Architect, while the rest of us are engineers, sectional
> Dan> architects, artisans, craftsmen, journeymen, a
On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, David Grove wrote:
[public voting]
> Good? Bad?
as someone who in a former life was part of creating news groups and
such I can only say bad things about "public voting" in an
environment like this. It just doesn't work and just doesn't measure
anything useful.
If you can a
Is anyone here familiar with the behind-the-scenes process and politics of
the Linux development community?
If I understand it correctly (and I'm not sure I have the details right),
when Linux was being developed, Linus came up with a skeletal OS based off
of MINIX, then he turned it loose. Peop
> "Dan" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Dan> A better analogy is that Larry's the Bishop and Chief
Dan> Architect, while the rest of us are engineers, sectional
Dan> architects, artisans, craftsmen, journeymen, and apprentices,
Dan> working to build up a cathedral.
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 02:20:23PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote:
> the lists should also be archived in the usual ways. having search
> functions (on the web?) would be a good addition. development lists many
> times will note an idea early on and forget it later. i have refound
> some good nuggets by
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 12:59 PM, Peter Buckingham
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> David Grove wrote:
> > Read-only and carefully censored lists are irrelevant to the goals of
> > Perl 6's giving voice to the perl community. They lead us right back
> > where we were before, with a core gro
David Grove wrote:
> Read-only and carefully censored lists are irrelevant to the goals of
> Perl 6's giving voice to the perl community. They lead us right back
> where we were before, with a core group free to sit back unchallenged
> on their complacency and let Perl go to rot.
What does "un
> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
DS> Read-only access is a must for any list like this, and with more
DS> than just a web archive. I'm sure Ask will set things up so anyone
DS> that likes can subscribe to the read-only version of the list.
that was in my original post
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Tim Bunce wrote:
> > A very complete UML tool in Java is ArgoUML:
> >
> > http://argouml.tigris.org/
>
> Umm, it might be interesting for someone to add a Perl code generator
> for it...
I've played with the idea of adding Perl code-generation to my design
tools (Visio200
If it's not too late, I'd like to also add:
Code Complete : A Practical Handbook of Software Construction
Steve C. McConnell
No matter what else we do, we know we're going to be writing code for this
puppy. IMHO I was writing pretty solid code already, but I'm seeing ways to
impro
David Grove wrote:
> Read-only and carefully censored lists are irrelevant to the goals of
> Perl 6's giving voice to the perl community. They lead us right back
> where we were before, with a core group free to sit back unchallenged on > their
>complacency and let Perl go to rot. To accomplish
There is an intermediate method, have our own execution and data stack.
Basically build a TIL interpreter. This might be intermediate in speed
between raw machine code and the perl vararg calls.
If not intermediate in speed, I suspect it would involve cleaner
looking code. All functions would lo
On Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:31 AM, John Barnette
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> D'you think it's a possibility to provide read-only access to the lists
> for interested parties?
Read-only and carefully censored lists are irrelevant to the goals of Perl 6's
giving voice to the perl commun
On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 12:34:04PM +0200, Bart Schuller wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 03:01:18PM -0400, 'John Porter' wrote:
> > Thanks for the link, Peter. I have now checked out Dia, and I'm not
> > enthusiastic about it. It seems to be a good start, but maturity is
> > a long way off. Not
On Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 03:01:18PM -0400, 'John Porter' wrote:
> Thanks for the link, Peter. I have now checked out Dia, and I'm not
> enthusiastic about it. It seems to be a good start, but maturity is
> a long way off. Not only that, but it is cumbersome (imho) to set up.
> I still think I'd
Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Before I forget: (I read a *lot*)
> A Course In General Linguistics, F. de Saussure. tr. Roy Harris
> (If you don't know what relation this has to Perl, what are you doing
> here?)
>
> The Practice of Programming, Kernighan and Pike.
>
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