Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 3:41 PM Matthew Walster wrote: The user initiates the connection to the CDN. The user is paying for a level of access to the internet via the BT network, with varying tiers of speed at particular costs. They are advertised as "Unlimited broadband: With no data caps or downl

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

I don't know what they are putting in the water in Korea, but strange things are reported from there. In addition to the SK Telecom shenanigans, apparently KT can't tell the difference between a DDoS and a routing error. https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20211025006253320 - Jared

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/21/21 20:28, Fred Baker wrote: I’m not sure I disagree, but let throw in a point of consideration. Historically, as you note, the caller pays the toll. However, the caller also CHOSE to call, even though the called party might find the call irritating. With a CDN, the network is out t

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Uh, that is what is being said… The user originated the call, so the CDN shouldn’t have to pay the user’s ISP to deliver the replies to the users’ requests. Owen > On Oct 21, 2021, at 11:28 , Fred Baker wrote: > > I’m not sure I disagree, but let throw in a point of consideration. > Historic

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Thu, 21 Oct 2021, 19:28 Fred Baker, wrote: > I’m not sure I disagree, but let throw in a point of consideration. > Historically, as you note, the caller pays the toll. However, the caller > also CHOSE to call, even though the called party might find the call > irritating. With a CDN, the netwo

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

I’m not sure I disagree, but let throw in a point of consideration. Historically, as you note, the caller pays the toll. However, the caller also CHOSE to call, even though the called party might find the call irritating. With a CDN, the network is out there hoping to be called, and the user mak

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 17:43, Owen DeLong wrote: > > On Oct 21, 2021, at 06:30 , Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail) < > allenmckinleykitc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I totally agree that this is not a perfect analogy. But I have some > sympathy for both parties in this debate. > > Close enough on the an

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 21, 2021, at 06:30 , Allen McKinley Kitchen (gmail) > wrote: > > > > ..Allen > >> On Oct 20, 2021, at 15:43, Matthew Walster wrote, >> among other things: >> >> Seems pretty disingenuous to now say the called party has to pay as well, in >> stark contrast to decades of precede

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 20, 2021, at 11:53 , Jared Brown wrote: > > Not to be outdone, British Telecom joins the cephalopod games: > > “Every Tbps (terabit-per-second) of data consumed over and above current > levels costs about £50m,” says Marc Allera, the chief executive of BT’s > consumer division. “In

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

..Allen > On Oct 20, 2021, at 15:43, Matthew Walster wrote, among > other things: > > Seems pretty disingenuous to now say the called party has to pay as well, in > stark contrast to decades of precedent with their telephone product, just > because their customers are actually using what t

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 19:53, Jared Brown wrote: > “When the rules were created 25 years ago I don’t think anyone would have > envisioned four or five companies would be driving 80% of the traffic on > the world’s internet. They aren’t making a contribution to the services > they are being carrie

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Not to be outdone, British Telecom joins the cephalopod games: “Every Tbps (terabit-per-second) of data consumed over and above current levels costs about £50m,” says Marc Allera, the chief executive of BT’s consumer division. “In the last year alone we’ve seen 4Tbps of extra usage and the cost

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 19, 2021, at 08:47 , Tom Beecher wrote: > > Vs. an ISP that is causing the problem or trying to run a protection racket > against content providers, I think it wouldn’t be hard for the content > provider to supply appropriate messaging inserted at the front end of > playback to expla

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> > Vs. an ISP that is causing the problem or trying to run a protection > racket against content providers, I think it wouldn’t be hard for the > content > provider to supply appropriate messaging inserted at the front end of > playback to explain the situation to their mutual customers. Instead o

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 18, 2021, at 14:48 , Jay Hennigan wrote: > > On 10/18/21 07:02, Josh Luthman wrote: > >>Netflix, as an example, has even been willing to bear most of the cost >>with peering or bringing servers to ISPs to reduce the ISP's costs and >>improve the ISP customer's experience.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/18/21 07:02, Josh Luthman wrote: Netflix, as an example, has even been willing to bear most of the cost with peering or bringing servers to ISPs to reduce the ISP's costs and improve the ISP customer's experience. Netflix doesn't do those things because it cares about the ISP

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Subject: Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge On 10/10/21 12:57 PM, Mark Tinka wrote: On 10/10/21 21:33, Matthew Petach wrote: If you sell a service for less than it costs to provide, simply based on the hopes that people won't actually *use* it, that&#x

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Imagine it's 2021. Over a decade ago the world started a transition from captive audio broadcast media from a single source towards unicast streaming from multiple sources. You operate an ISP network that was designed for a past era and you have been slow to keep up with your competitors or wit

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Imagine it's 2008 and your AP is pushing out 3 mbps. Customers are all happy. Suddenly, Netflix demands 10x what you're offering. Customers are not happy. Customers don't understand. People don't understand. There are a million cogs in the machine and if the path of least resistance is to turn

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

I agree with you generally. It's not impossible, but probably unlikely for an individual to be sued for contents of cookie data or similar small fragments like that. I do believe it's orders of more magnitude more likely for the 'average' residential consumer to attract a suit from the MPAA/RIAA/

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/13/21 2:39 AM, Doug Barton wrote: On the cookie issue, I have had very good luck with this in Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autodelete/ - Nice, I have the setti

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On the cookie issue, I have had very good luck with this in Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autodelete/ hope this helps, Doug On 10/12/21 6:26 AM, scott wrote: On 10/12/21 9:15 PM, Matthew Petach wrote: So, I take it you steadfastly block *all* cookies from

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/12/21 9:15 PM, Matthew Petach wrote: So, I take it you steadfastly block *all* cookies from being stored or transmitted from your browser at home? --\ I used to when Firefox had the "ask me every time" for cookies. They go

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 2:01 PM Tom Beecher wrote: > I think it would be absolutely *stunning* for content providers >> to turn the model on its head; use a bittorrent like model for >> caching and serving content out of subscribers homes at >> recalcitrant ISPs, so that data doesn't come from ou

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> > I think it would be absolutely *stunning* for content providers > to turn the model on its head; use a bittorrent like model for > caching and serving content out of subscribers homes at > recalcitrant ISPs, so that data doesn't come from outside, > it comes out of the mesh within the eyeball n

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Tue, 12 Oct 2021, 02:24 Owen DeLong, wrote: > > A 4K 2 hour movie is about 40GB. Most modern smart TVs around 32GB of RAM > and can probably devote about 20GB of that to buffering a stream, so yeah, > that should actually be doable. > Most users are not streaming 4K, it's a very small fractio

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 8:16 AM Jared Brown wrote: > Mark Tinka wrote: [...] > > > But I doubt that > > will work, unless someone can think up a clever way to modify BitTorrent > > to suit today's network architectures. > Unless network topology is somehow exposed, this isn't possible. All >

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 12, 2021, at 09:04 , Jared Brown wrote: > > Doug Barton wrote: >> One incentive I haven't seen anyone mention is that ISPs don't want to >> charge customers what it really costs to provide them access. > For the sake of argument, let's assume this is true. > > For this to work, I

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 12, 2021, at 08:13 , Jared Brown wrote: > > Mark Tinka wrote: >> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I know BitTorrent to >> work is the file is downloaded to disk, unarchived and then listed as >> ready to watch. > That's not how it works. Several streaming BitTorrent c

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 12, 2021, at 06:45 , Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/11/21 22:57, Matthew Walster wrote: > >> Ignoring for the moment that P2P is inherently difficult to stream with >> (you're usually downloading chunks in parallel, and with devices like Smart >> TVs etc you don't really have the

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/12/21 18:33, Sabri Berisha wrote: Yes, let's go back to 2003. The ISP I worked for at that time was one of the first in the country (if not the first) to host Akamai's caching servers. Ten years later I worked on a project where Akamai caching was embedded in subscriber management rout

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

- On Oct 11, 2021, at 12:58 AM, Mark Tinka mark@tinka.africa wrote: Hi, > However, in an era where content is making a push to get as close to the > eyeballs as possible, kit getting cheaper and faster because of merchant > silicon, and abundance of aggregated capacity at exchange points, can

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Hello, > Providing access is mostly fixed costs, as there are very few consumables in > running a network. > > IP transit costs aren't an issue, since Netflix will do settlement free > peering. > > This leaves the internal network of SK Telecom as the problem and cost > center. Even with

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Doug Barton wrote: > One incentive I haven't seen anyone mention is that ISPs don't want to > charge customers what it really costs to provide them access. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is true. For this to work, I am really trying hard to ignore inconvenient facts like: "So

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/12/21 17:39, Jared Brown wrote: Since we aren't talking about random pirated content, but p2p streaming from a major content provider it would obviously be point & click. Yes, in which case Jane + Thatho don't need to worry about device compatibility, especially if the device is

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Mark Tinka wrote: >> Well, yes. Or you could just stream content that is guaranteed to be >> compatible with the device used. > > People on this list would bother to check compatibility. > > Jane + Thatho just point & click. Since we aren't talking about random pirated content, but p2p streaming

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/12/21 17:13, Jared Brown wrote: That's not how it works. Several streaming BitTorrent clients specifically request blocks in order so that you can start watching immediately. Not that you need a special client, it works pretty well with the standard client as well on a well seeded

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Mark Tinka wrote: > Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I know BitTorrent to > work is the file is downloaded to disk, unarchived and then listed as > ready to watch. That's not how it works. Several streaming BitTorrent clients specifically request blocks in order so that you can s

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 22:57, Matthew Walster wrote: Ignoring for the moment that P2P is inherently difficult to stream with (you're usually downloading chunks in parallel, and with devices like Smart TVs etc you don't really have the storage to do so anyway) there's also the problem that things like B

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/12/21 14:20, Jason Iannone wrote: Isn't this a problem with legacy peering agreements in today's internet? The same thing happened between Netflix, Level3, and Verizon a few years ago. The legacy concept of settlement-free peering is based on traffic forwarding parity. If what I forwa

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 22:05, Matthew Petach wrote: Let's check back in 2026, and see if someone's become fantastically successful doing this or not.  ;) I have to say, your idea is quite fantastical. I'm not sure I have enough brain cells to consider how it will work, remembering that vCPE's were a

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Isn't this a problem with legacy peering agreements in today's internet? The same thing happened between Netflix, Level3, and Verizon a few years ago. The legacy concept of settlement-free peering is based on traffic forwarding parity. If what I forward to you roughly matches what you forward to me

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 11, 2021, at 13:57 , Matthew Walster wrote: > > > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 at 21:05, Matthew Petach > wrote: > I think it would be absolutely *stunning* for content providers > to turn the model on its head; use a bittorrent like model for > caching and

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 11, 2021, at 13:05 , Matthew Petach wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 1:01 AM Mark Tinka wrote: > However, in an era where content is making a push to get as close to the > eyeballs as possible, kit getting cheaper and faster because of merchant > silicon, and abundance of ag

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 at 21:05, Matthew Petach wrote: > I think it would be absolutely *stunning* for content providers > to turn the model on its head; use a bittorrent like model for > caching and serving content out of subscribers homes at > recalcitrant ISPs, so that data doesn't come from outs

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 10:09 AM Michael Thomas wrote: > > On 10/11/21 12:49 AM, Matthew Petach wrote: > > > Instead of a 4K stream, drop it to 480 or 240; the eyeball network > should be happy at the reduced strain the resulting stream puts > on their network. > > As a consumer paying for my 4k

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 1:01 AM Mark Tinka wrote: > However, in an era where content is making a push to get as close to the > eyeballs as possible, kit getting cheaper and faster because of merchant > silicon, and abundance of aggregated capacity at exchange points, can we > leverage the shorter

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 12:49 AM, Matthew Petach wrote: Instead of a 4K stream, drop it to 480 or 240; the eyeball network should be happy at the reduced strain the resulting stream puts on their network. As a consumer paying for my 4k stream, I know who I'm calling when it drops to 480 and it ain't Net

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> Going back to the fact that it's not the content providers "using" > a lot of bandwidth, it's the eyeball customer *requesting* a lot > of bandwidth, I think the best approach is for the content providers > to help manage traffic levels by lowering bit rates towards eyeball > networks that ar

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 11, 2021, at 00:32 , Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/11/21 02:58, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> That’s irrelevant to what he is saying. >> >> What he’s saying (and he’s 100% correct) is that any tax a corporation pays >> is collected from their customers one way or another. >> >> A co

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> I am almost sure Netflix have some degree of presence in South Korea. What > I'm not sure about is what else SK wants them to do beyond that. They’ve made it pretty clear… They want Netflix to pay their protection^wbandwidth charges. >> And for the record, not only have I never worked for an

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 11, 2021, at 00:01 , Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/11/21 00:31, Geoff Huston wrote: > >> In many environments, the words we use to describe this form of price >> setting are generally prefixed by the adjective “illegal” :-) > > Indeed - colluding is generally frowned upon, in w

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 17:26, Niels Bakker wrote: I don't think that's being entirely fair. Netflix in plenty places differentiates its subscriptions based partly on video resolution: https://help.netflix.com/en/node/24926/us Some people will definitely care enough to sign up for a more expensive

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

* mark@tinka.africa (Mark Tinka) [Mon 11 Oct 2021, 17:18 CEST]: To be fair, Jane + Thatho don't care about video resolution. I don't think that's being entirely fair. Netflix in plenty places differentiates its subscriptions based partly on video resolution: https://help.netflix.com/en/node/2

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 8:11 PM Doug Barton wrote: > On 10/1/21 7:45 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > > > The reason that Netflix doesn't want to do it is the same reason that > ISPs don't want to charge their customers what it really costs to > provide them access. > SO: In my part of the world where en

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 09:49, Matthew Petach wrote: Going back to the fact that it's not the content providers "using" a lot of bandwidth, it's the eyeball customer *requesting* a lot of bandwidth, I think the best approach is for the content providers to help manage traffic levels by lowering bit rates

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 00:10, Niels Bakker wrote: Sounds like you think SK should be paying Netflix for bringing their content all the way from the US to the Korean peninsula. That's some expensive wet cable being used there. Do we know whether Netflix don't already have OCA's and/or local peering

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/10/21 23:57, Sabri Berisha wrote: I have worked for ISPs. And I remember the late 90s. Bandwidth was $35/mbit on average, at least for the outfit where I was. Consumers paid roughly $40 for their DSL connections, which at the time went up to 2Mbit depending on the age of the copper and

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:44 PM Doug Barton wrote: > [some snipping below] > > Also just to be clear, these are my own opinions, not necessarily shared > by any current or former employers. > > On 10/10/21 12:31 PM, Mark Tinka wrote: > > On 10/10/21 21:08, Doug Barton wrote > >> Given that issue,

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 02:58, Owen DeLong wrote: That’s irrelevant to what he is saying. What he’s saying (and he’s 100% correct) is that any tax a corporation pays is collected from their customers one way or another. A corporation has no other source of income with which to pay its taxes beyond th

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 03:05, Owen DeLong wrote: Which is the kind of ignorant view of the situation that creates this problem in the first place. It’s not for “no $$”, it’s for all the $$ they got from all those 100Mbps links that they are delivering those Tbps of traffic to. If the aggregate $$ th

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/10/21 23:42, Doug Barton wrote: I didn't say income tax. Corporate taxes are considered an expense by the corporation paying them. Like all other expenses, they are factored into the cost of goods/services sold. Ah, yes, agreed. I thought you meant something else... First, I'm

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 01:43, Keith Medcalf wrote: This is blatantly incorrect. The bits were payed for by the requestor. You totally missed my dig... I was being sarcastic. Mark.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/11/21 00:31, Geoff Huston wrote: In many environments, the words we use to describe this form of price setting are generally prefixed by the adjective “illegal” :-) Indeed - colluding is generally frowned upon, in which case we are doomed to the current model, and may the best man w

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 10, 2021, at 13:21 , Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/10/21 22:13, Michael Thomas wrote: > >> Isn't that what Erlang numbers are all about? My suspicion is that after >> about 100Mbs most people wouldn't notice the difference in most cases. My >> ISP is about 25Mbs on a good day (

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 10, 2021, at 13:18 , Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/10/21 22:10, Geoff Huston wrote: > >> I have to agree with Doug Barton's earlier observation is that the base >> problem is that the ISPs are using a flawed business model and they don't >> want to charge their customers what i

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

>> (in the same way that corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do),... > > > Many a company pays corporate tax, which is separate from the income tax they > pay for compensation to their staff. > > Of course, YMMV depending on where you live. That’s irrelevant to what he is saying. Wh

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On Oct 10, 2021, at 12:08 , Doug Barton wrote: > > On 10/1/21 7:45 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: >> The reason Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, e.t.c., all built their own >> global backbones is because of this nonsense that SK Broadband is trying to >> pull with Netflix. At some point, the co

RE: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Sunday, 10 October, 2021 14:21, Mark Tinka wrote: >They are looking at the aggregate Gbps or Tbps of traffic that >BigContent is seeking to deliver across their network, for "no $$". This is blatantly incorrect. The bits were payed for by the requestor. BigContent does not "send bits" to n

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Netflix has programs for which many ISPs - even smaller are able to build a cache system. This may help the ISP who filed suit here - That being said - Our Consultancy has helped a number of smaller ISPs build using the Open Connect options - however for many they cannot justify the want from

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On 11 Oct 2021, at 7:18 am, Mark Tinka wrote: > > > > On 10/10/21 22:10, Geoff Huston wrote: > >> I have to agree with Doug Barton's earlier observation is that the base >> problem is that the ISPs are using a flawed business model and they don't >> want to charge their customers what it

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

* do...@dougbarton.us (Doug Barton) [Sun 10 Oct 2021, 23:44 CEST]: First, I'm not saying "should." I'm saying that given the market economics, having the content providers who use "a lot" of bandwidth do something to offset those costs to the ISPs might be the best/least bad option. Whether "so

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

- On Oct 10, 2021, at 2:42 PM, Doug Barton do...@dougbarton.us wrote: Hi, > And for the record, not only have I never worked for an ISP, I was > saying all the way back in the late '90s that the oversubscription > business model (which almost always includes punishing users who > actually use

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

[some snipping below] Also just to be clear, these are my own opinions, not necessarily shared by any current or former employers. On 10/10/21 12:31 PM, Mark Tinka wrote: On 10/10/21 21:08, Doug Barton wrote Given that issue, I have some sympathy for eyeball networks wanting to charge cont

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/10/21 22:13, Michael Thomas wrote: Isn't that what Erlang numbers are all about? My suspicion is that after about 100Mbs most people wouldn't notice the difference in most cases. My ISP is about 25Mbs on a good day (DSL) and it serves our needs fine and have never run into bandwidth c

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/10/21 22:10, Geoff Huston wrote: I have to agree with Doug Barton's earlier observation is that the base problem is that the ISPs are using a flawed business model and they don't want to charge their customers what it really costs to provide them with high speed access, nor do they w

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/10/21 12:57 PM, Mark Tinka wrote: On 10/10/21 21:33, Matthew Petach wrote: If you sell a service for less than it costs to provide, simply based on the hopes that people won't actually *use* it, that's called "gambling", and I have very little sympathy for businesses that gamble and lo

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On 11 Oct 2021, at 6:33 am, Matthew Petach wrote: > > […] Facebook, Microsoft, and Amazon all caved to SK's demands: > > I will note that my $previous_employer was a top-10 web content provider > that did *not* pay SK Broadband. Not all the content providers caved > to SKB. > The situa

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/10/21 21:33, Matthew Petach wrote: If you sell a service for less than it costs to provide, simply based on the hopes that people won't actually *use* it, that's called "gambling", and I have very little sympathy for businesses that gamble and lose. You arrived at the crux of the issue

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 12:12 PM Doug Barton wrote: > On 10/1/21 7:45 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: > > The reason Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, e.t.c., all built their > > own global backbones is because of this nonsense that SK Broadband is > > trying to pull with Netflix. At some point, the con

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/10/21 21:08, Doug Barton wrote: Except that Facebook, Microsoft, and Amazon all caved to SK's demands: "The popularity of the hit series "Squid Game" and other offerings have underscored Netflix's status as the country's second-largest data traffic generator after Google's YouTube,

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/1/21 7:45 AM, Mark Tinka wrote: The reason Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, e.t.c., all built their own global backbones is because of this nonsense that SK Broadband is trying to pull with Netflix. At some point, the content folk will get fed up, and go build it themselves. What an o

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

The bottom line problem is that we have allowed vertical integration to allow the natural monopoly that exists in last mile infrastructure in most locations to be leveraged into an effective full-stack monopoly for those same players. Lack of competition in the last-mile/eyeball space has allowed

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/1/21 18:31, Tom Hill wrote: Many (most?) route servers provide little control over who your routes are advertised toward. This can be fun where DDoS is concerned. I've used some that did have deny-list controls for ASNs, fail to consistently apply those rules. Again, that was a 'fun' s

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/1/21 18:05, Laura Smith wrote: Speaking as one of those smaller ISPs willing to do whatever it takes, perhaps you could answer me this riddle. - PoP in one of your "half-decent data centres" ... tick. - Connnection to one of your "exchange point" ... tick. - $certain_large_cdn pre

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Thanks for your insight Matt, much appreciated.

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:27 AM Joshua Pool via NANOG wrote: > [...] > One could also note that it's 2021 and Cogent and Hurricane Electric are > still not peered. > Bugger. You're right. I forgot to add "stupid human ego issues" to my list of reasons why direct peering requests get ignored or

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

I wasn't aware of that, but I think that's perfect! And completely reasonable on Netflix (or any content provider's part). I'm sure Verizon's wordsmiths would argue that the "crowding" happened upstream of the Verizon network, but if stated another way (like "the paths into Verizon's networ

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 9:08 AM Laura Smith via NANOG wrote: > > > The bad news now, is, there are plenty of many, small, local > > and regional ISP's who are willing to do whatever it takes to > > work with the content providers. All that's required is some > > network, a half-decent data centre

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

I think instances where the end ISP is peered directly with Netflix and demands more money is not valid at all. That should be normal cost of doing business to increase capacity as the consumer demand grows. The topic of interest is instances where the ISP is not directly peered with Netflix and u

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/1/21 07:19, Blake Hudson wrote: It's about time Netflix played chicken with one of these ISPs and stopped offering service  (or offered limited service) to the ISPs that try to extort them and other content providers: Sorry, your service provider does not believe in net neutrality and h

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/1/2021 11:23 AM, Sean Donelan wrote: In the old days, postal services used to charge the recipient of a letter to deliver the letter. Then stamps were invented, and postal services charged the sender of the letter, and the recipent got free delivery. Now there is free-shipping, an

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 01/10/2021 17:05, Laura Smith via NANOG wrote: > - $certain_large_cdn publishes routes on route server ? Nope. Many (most?) route servers provide little control over who your routes are advertised toward. This can be fun where DDoS is concerned. I've used some that did have deny-list controls

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Having done peering for many $big_boys_club and $small_isps, it always comes down to politics, $$ and time. The balance may change but end of day its those variables and its a painful game some days. From all sides :( -jim On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:07 PM Laura Smith via NANOG wrote: > > > The

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

In the old days, postal services used to charge the recipient of a letter to deliver the letter. Then stamps were invented, and postal services charged the sender of the letter, and the recipent got free delivery. Now there is free-shipping, and pre-paid return envelopes for DVDs. Of cours

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> The bad news now, is, there are plenty of many, small, local > and regional ISP's who are willing to do whatever it takes to > work with the content providers. All that's required is some > network, a half-decent data centre and an exchange point. Gone > are the days where customers clamored to

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

> On 1 Oct 2021, at 16:46, Mark Tinka wrote: > >  > >> On 10/1/21 16:19, Blake Hudson wrote: >> >> >> I'll never understand over how ISPs see content providers as the enemy (or a >> rival). The content is why ISPs have customers. Don't get upset when your >> customer uses the service tha

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/1/21 16:19, Blake Hudson wrote: I'll never understand over how ISPs see content providers as the enemy (or a rival). The content is why ISPs have customers. Don't get upset when your customer uses the service that you sold them (in a way that is precisely in accordance with the expe

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

On 10/1/2021 8:48 AM, Sean Donelan wrote: South Korean Internet service provider SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content, an SK spokesperson said on Friday. [...] Last year, N

Re: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge

Yet another peering dispute ending in litigation? From: NANOG on behalf of Sean Donelan Date: Friday, 1 October 2021 at 7:21 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: S.Korea broadband firm sues Netflix after traffic surge South Korean Internet service provider SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for c

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